How much longer do you need before admitting it's over ?

[darcysmart]

May 25, 2014 16:07:33 GMT shellyharman67 said:

May 25, 2014 7:27:03 GMT darcysmart said:

I'll admit it's over when they're all back. Until then, there is always potential. But don't let it play on your head too much, there are people out there looking for us. If you feel so strongly about it, go looking for them yourselves. I would love to.

I agree ! But there may be a few that are dead ducks Mission, and FOS may be 2 we never get back ! Private collectors are very secretive, so i think this searching in reality could be a very long process indeed

Oh of course, it's unfortunate but so so true that Mission & FOS are definitely gone forever. I just wish some of those pesky private collectors would just let up. If I had one shred of a frame of a Doctor Who or two seconds of an unheard Beatles song I'd want to share it with the world. Don't be so selfish! Ahh dear.

[shellyharman67]

May 26, 2014 7:08:13 GMT darcysmart said:

May 25, 2014 16:07:33 GMT shellyharman67 said:

I agree ! But there may be a few that are dead ducks Mission, and FOS may be 2 we never get back ! Private collectors are very secretive, so i think this searching in reality could be a very long process indeed

Oh of course, it's unfortunate but so so true that Mission & FOS are definitely gone forever. I just wish some of those pesky private collectors would just let up. If I had one shred of a frame of a Doctor Who or two seconds of an unheard Beatles song I'd want to share it with the world. Don't be so selfish! Ahh dear.

You have to understand the mind set of these people ! Some may be unaware of what they have. On the other hand i doubt if they are that dumb They have a sad OCD if you like attitude to things !

[shellyharman67]

Its like collectors of paintings if you like Darcy. If you have a one off unique piece that no one has, you would be truly unique in that respect ! Not a Dr Who or Doomwatch ECT fan at all And its this which makes it harder, because they would rather have it on an old original print, than see it on a dvd. I have always thought that if they were even fans and had enough money They could transfer to new tapes ! Just a thought i guess....

[Robbie Moubert]

May 26, 2014 7:08:13 GMT darcysmart said:

I just wish some of those pesky private collectors would just let up. If I had one shred of a frame of a Doctor Who or two seconds of an unheard Beatles song I'd want to share it with the world. Don't be so selfish! Ahh dear.

There's no evidence to suggest that any episodes are being deliberately withheld by private collectors.

[John Wall]

I have to say that I think it unlikely that there are substantial numbers of missing episodes still to be recovered from foreign TV stations. There are several reasons for this.

Firstly, as I have previously argued, I don't see Philip Morris holding Auntie to ransom for the return of material as I can't see how any "cut" of DVD sales or iTunes downloads would come close to covering his costs. It would also set what could be an unfortunate precedent for the future. Please note that I certainly wouldn't begrudge him anything.

Secondly, the search has been underway for quite a few years. Although Dr Who sold widely the list is finite and there can’t be many locations still to be checked.

It is possible that there may still be some odd episodes at foreign TV stations. It seems reasonable to assume that WOF3 was originally at Jos with the other eleven prints Philip Morris found, but where did it go ? Did the Nicholas Courtney fan club get there first or is it in a pile of other prints waiting to be checked and conserved ? Philip Morris seems to be collecting, checking and conserving prints from all sorts of places so there may well be some unlabeled/mislabeled “treasure” waiting to be found. Then there may be an odd reel that somehow ended up in a desk drawer or at the back of a cupboard.

[shellyharman67]

May 26, 2014 18:16:47 GMT John Wall said:

I have to say that I think it unlikely that there are substantial numbers of missing episodes still to be recovered from foreign TV stations. There are several reasons for this.

Firstly, as I have previously argued, I don't see Philip Morris holding Auntie to ransom for the return of material as I can't see how any "cut" of DVD sales or iTunes downloads would come close to covering his costs. It would also set what could be an unfortunate precedent for the future. Please note that I certainly wouldn't begrudge him anything.

Secondly, the search has been underway for quite a few years. Although Dr Who sold widely the list is finite and there can’t be many locations still to be checked.

It is possible that there may still be some odd episodes at foreign TV stations. It seems reasonable to assume that WOF3 was originally at Jos with the other eleven prints Philip Morris found, but where did it go ? Did the Nicholas Courtney fan club get there first or is it in a pile of other prints waiting to be checked and conserved ? Philip Morris seems to be collecting, checking and conserving prints from all sorts of places so there may well be some unlabeled/mislabeled “treasure” waiting to be found. Then there may be an odd reel that somehow ended up in a desk drawer or at the back of a cupboard.

Well said ! I dont think anyone could of put it better John.

[Alex Dering]

Checklist for it being over.

Side A.
The people who "know."
All of the people who "know" have come forward with not one scrap of evidence. Ian Levine had a meltdown all over the Twitter series of Internet tubes over Phil Morris "hoarding" episodes, but never produced an iota of evidence that would let a third party arrive at the same "hoarding" conclusion. Various Internet "sources" produce reams of "information" about how many copies of Marco Polo there are, the state of repair of various random episodes, and so forth. They will not reveal "sources." (Google "Salinger Effect") As earlier stated deadlines come and go without more episodes, more tortuous explanations are promulgated, all with a reassurance that, eventually, the episodes will be released.

Conclusion: Everyone who claims to "know" is either kidding themselves, intentionally telling tall tales, or has been lied to by other people.

Refutation of conclusion: Pick one.
A. Produce a missing episode and its provenance.
B. Produce a portion of a missing episode. A one-minute clip ought to be sufficient and certainly wouldn't harm the value of the rest of the episode.

Until then? Simply ignore "sources." Also, don't get into strangers' cars to help them find their lost puppies. Oh, and don't order the pork tartare.

Side B.
The people who actually know.

Philip Morris knows what -- if anything -- Philip Morris has found. Any other parties -- be they the BBC, the Restoration Team, your great-aunt's hairdresser, etc. -- are Side A.
Morris' motivations all boil down to either personal or professional (or both). But the crux of the issue is this: What possible point would there have been to go all over the damned planet looking through archives for episodes? To keep personally as a gloat? Ridiculous. The point of the exercise was to get the episodes out to the world, not lock them up in a shed somewhere (Google MGM Vault Fire).

Conclusion: Phil Morris can issue a simple statement: "The 97 'missing episodes' remain missing. I did not find them, I do not know where they are, and I have no knowledge of them." Then we'll know for sure. Until then, the simplest answer is that Side A doesn't know what it's talking about, and Side B has better things to do then try to engage in what is rapidly becoming an issue of faith rather than an issue of reason.

[Simon Jailler]

May 28, 2014 13:51:01 GMT Alex Dering said:

Checklist for it being over.

Side A.
The people who "know."
All of the people who "know" have come forward with not one scrap of evidence. Ian Levine had a meltdown all over the Twitter series of Internet tubes over Phil Morris "hoarding" episodes, but never produced an iota of evidence that would let a third party arrive at the same "hoarding" conclusion. Various Internet "sources" produce reams of "information" about how many copies of Marco Polo there are, the state of repair of various random episodes, and so forth. They will not reveal "sources." (Google "Salinger Effect") As earlier stated deadlines come and go without more episodes, more tortuous explanations are promulgated, all with a reassurance that, eventually, the episodes will be released.

Conclusion: Everyone who claims to "know" is either kidding themselves, intentionally telling tall tales, or has been lied to by other people.

Refutation of conclusion: Pick one.
A. Produce a missing episode and its provenance.
B. Produce a portion of a missing episode. A one-minute clip ought to be sufficient and certainly wouldn't harm the value of the rest of the episode.

Until then? Simply ignore "sources." Also, don't get into strangers' cars to help them find their lost puppies. Oh, and don't order the pork tartare.

Side B.
The people who actually know.

Philip Morris knows what -- if anything -- Philip Morris has found. Any other parties -- be they the BBC, the Restoration Team, your great-aunt's hairdresser, etc. -- are Side A.
Morris' motivations all boil down to either personal or professional (or both). But the crux of the issue is this: What possible point would there have been to go all over the damned planet looking through archives for episodes? To keep personally as a gloat? Ridiculous. The point of the exercise was to get the episodes out to the world, not lock them up in a shed somewhere (Google MGM Vault Fire).

Conclusion: Phil Morris can issue a simple statement: "The 97 'missing episodes' remain missing. I did not find them, I do not know where they are, and I have no knowledge of them." Then we'll know for sure. Until then, the simplest answer is that Side A doesn't know what it's talking about, and Side B has better things to do then try to engage in what is rapidly becoming an issue of faith rather than an issue of reason.

Good analysis.

Interesting now that posts are appearing on forums regarding short clips from MEs being seen by sources to people who "know". That is difficult enough to phrase and type, let alone believe.

I think Phil M is a thoroughly honest broker who genuinely wants to exhust all avenues of enquiry before he declares anything new. I hope the release of a book or film of his search will generate some funds to cover his costs.

[johnforbes]

What I find VERY strange, and which no one seems to have picked up on so far is this.

Once the prints from Jos had been cleaned up and digitally transferred, they could have been given back to PM since the BBC now had a digital copy, in much the same way that Grenville got to keep The Lion once a copy had been made.
But, they don't seem to have been, afaik the prints remain with the BBC.
Those films would have made a crap lot of money @ auction given their one of a kind rarity, EOTW for being complete, and a Troughton, and WoF for being a classic albeit missing ep 3.

If sold after digitizing, PM could have recouped some substantial costs and maybe even gone into profit depending on how hard the bidding war would have been. Seems inconceivable that he would miss out on such an opportunity.

[Simon Jailler]

May 28, 2014 15:07:08 GMT johnforbes said:

What I find VERY strange, and which no one seems to have picked up on so far is this.

Once the prints from Jos had been cleaned up and digitally transferred, they could have been given back to PM since the BBC now had a digital copy, in much the same way that Grenville got to keep The Lion once a copy had been made.
But, they don't seem to have been, afaik the prints remain with the BBC.
Those films would have made a crap lot of money @ auction given their one of a kind rarity, EOTW for being complete, and a Troughton, and WoF for being a classic albeit missing ep 3.

If sold after digitizing, PM could have recouped some substantial costs and maybe even gone into profit depending on how hard the bidding war would have been. Seems inconceivable that he would miss out on such an opportunity.

I assumed the prints would be returned to the TV company in Jos concerned, as per TIEA's mission statement.

Sorting all the rights out must be a bit of a nightmare.

[John Wall]

May 28, 2014 15:07:08 GMT johnforbes said:

What I find VERY strange, and which no one seems to have picked up on so far is this.

Once the prints from Jos had been cleaned up and digitally transferred, they could have been given back to PM since the BBC now had a digital copy, in much the same way that Grenville got to keep The Lion once a copy had been made.
But, they don't seem to have been, afaik the prints remain with the BBC.
Those films would have made a crap lot of money @ auction given their one of a kind rarity, EOTW for being complete, and a Troughton, and WoF for being a classic albeit missing ep 3.

If sold after digitizing, PM could have recouped some substantial costs and maybe even gone into profit depending on how hard the bidding war would have been. Seems inconceivable that he would miss out on such an opportunity.

Good point. iirc the DWM article stated that the prints were back with the BBC in proper archival conditions. There are instances where prints of missing episodes have been loaned to Auntie for transferring.

It's further evidence to substantiate the view some of us have held for quite a while that Philip Morris isn't in it for the money and also undermines the position of those who claim that his sock drawer can only be opened with brown paper envelopes full of used, non consecutively numbered, fivers.

I can only guess at how much original BBC prints of Season 5 would go for, over £1000 each imho.

[johnforbes]

May 28, 2014 17:01:55 GMT John Wall said:

May 28, 2014 15:07:08 GMT johnforbes said:

What I find VERY strange, and which no one seems to have picked up on so far is this.

Once the prints from Jos had been cleaned up and digitally transferred, they could have been given back to PM since the BBC now had a digital copy, in much the same way that Grenville got to keep The Lion once a copy had been made.
But, they don't seem to have been, afaik the prints remain with the BBC.
Those films would have made a crap lot of money @ auction given their one of a kind rarity, EOTW for being complete, and a Troughton, and WoF for being a classic albeit missing ep 3.

If sold after digitizing, PM could have recouped some substantial costs and maybe even gone into profit depending on how hard the bidding war would have been. Seems inconceivable that he would miss out on such an opportunity.

Good point. iirc the DWM article stated that the prints were back with the BBC in proper archival conditions. There are instances where prints of missing episodes have been loaned to Auntie for transferring.

It's further evidence to substantiate the view some of us have held for quite a while that Philip Morris isn't in it for the money and also undermines the position of those who claim that his sock drawer can only be opened with brown paper envelopes full of used, non consecutively numbered, fivers.

I can only guess at how much original BBC prints of Season 5 would go for, over £10000 each imho.

You missed the last 0 off, corrected your post for you

Being honest, and reasonable, I reckon for a complete Sn 5 Troughton, you could ask, and quite possibly get, 5 figures per ep, especially since only 1 part of the story existed previously. For the entire 11, I think you could expect 100k. Stretching to 125 if WoF had been complete since that missing ep itself is of huge importance on its own.

[johnforbes]

May 28, 2014 16:01:36 GMT Simon Jailler said:

May 28, 2014 15:07:08 GMT johnforbes said:

What I find VERY strange, and which no one seems to have picked up on so far is this.

Once the prints from Jos had been cleaned up and digitally transferred, they could have been given back to PM since the BBC now had a digital copy, in much the same way that Grenville got to keep The Lion once a copy had been made.
But, they don't seem to have been, afaik the prints remain with the BBC.
Those films would have made a crap lot of money @ auction given their one of a kind rarity, EOTW for being complete, and a Troughton, and WoF for being a classic albeit missing ep 3.

If sold after digitizing, PM could have recouped some substantial costs and maybe even gone into profit depending on how hard the bidding war would have been. Seems inconceivable that he would miss out on such an opportunity.

I assumed the prints would be returned to the TV company in Jos concerned, as per TIEA's mission statement.

Sorting all the rights out must be a bit of a nightmare.

Jos would have no need for the prints since they can't screen them, and since it is Jos, they would only get destroyed in an explosion eventually.
As a TV station they were meant to have sent them back (or destroyed them) after the rights expired.

[John Wall]

I wouldn't disagree with that, although I'm not sure of established prices for original Season 5 prints - the sky could be the limit.

[Alan Jeffries]

But surely, as the copyright of the show belongs to the BBC it would be a breach of said copyright to then go on and sell them!