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Post by andyparting on Oct 14, 2023 7:10:12 GMT
In the above linked thread, Paul V writes something I’m struggling to understand - not what he said, but *why* he’d say it ? I’m absolutely sure Paul wouldn’t resent Missing Episode Hunter’s efforts to find missing episodes, but why warn against finding episodes? If it changes the prints’ fate, why is it safer to leave episodes to degrade in the heat of Jos, until they are ALL chucked out as worthless ? Would it have been better for these prints not to be discovered, but EOW3 would’ve still been there, if we could have our time again ? Most importantly, how could anyone have done anything differently based on following Paul’s circumspect advice ? I took his point to mean that as soon as the films on the shelf are identified as having value, they become vulnerable. He doesn’t appear to me to be advocating them being left to their fate on the shelves, but that great care is needed to make sure they can be safely retrieved and not intercepted or stopped by people acting in bad faith. Paul's right what he said. Maybe Phil has learned this the hard way - losing WOF3 and 'something else' in the process. This is why I think he's kept quiet, part of the process of taking "great care" as Daniel mentioned above. But that process then leads us to doubt he even has any further finds, esp now it's been so long. Keeping quiet about it means not drawing attention to whatever is still out there. I don't think though that's as effective as leaving it where it's been sitting on a shelf for 40 years... where it belongs, undisturbed. But then is mentioning that private collectors have missing episodes a case of not leaving something undisturbed on a shelf?? |
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Post by andyeves on Oct 14, 2023 7:23:47 GMT
In the above linked thread, Paul V writes something I’m struggling to understand - not what he said, but *why* he’d say it ? At the beginning of all of this, before Phil tracked the films down I told him that if he found anything, he'd be putting the films in danger. When something lies undisturbed for 40 or so years, it's safe. As soon as you change its circumstances, you change its fate. What happened to Web 3 is the perfect example of that fact. I’m absolutely sure Paul wouldn’t resent Missing Episode Hunter’s efforts to find missing episodes, but why warn against finding episodes? If it changes the prints’ fate, why is it safer to leave episodes to degrade in the heat of Jos, until they are ALL chucked out as worthless ? Would it have been better for these prints not to be discovered, but EOW3 would’ve still been there, if we could have our time again ? Most importantly, how could anyone have done anything differently based on following Paul’s circumspect advice ? He's referring to the fact that Phil instructed his employee to move this batch to a more secure area, which he did so in full view of the Jos station manager ... which drew attention to them ... which piqued his curiosity as to what was so special about this particular batch of films ... |
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Post by andyeves on Oct 14, 2023 7:31:28 GMT
In the above linked thread, Paul V writes something I’m struggling to understand - not what he said, but *why* he’d say it ? I’m absolutely sure Paul wouldn’t resent Missing Episode Hunter’s efforts to find missing episodes, but why warn against finding episodes? If it changes the prints’ fate, why is it safer to leave episodes to degrade in the heat of Jos, until they are ALL chucked out as worthless ? Would it have been better for these prints not to be discovered, but EOW3 would’ve still been there, if we could have our time again ? Most importantly, how could anyone have done anything differently based on following Paul’s circumspect advice ? He's referring to the fact that Phil instructed his employee to move this batch to a more secure area, which he did so in full view of the Jos station manager ... which drew attention to them ... which piqued his curiosity as to what was so special about this particular batch of films ... As has already been highlighted, this thread is largely re-treading old ground, but I’m going to briefly recount a personal experience that has parallels … Back in 1989, my then-lodger kept his VHS tapes in the lounge. One afternoon, when he went upstairs to his bedroom soon after I’d come home unexpectedly, he took one tape with him. After he’d gone out, I located where he’d hidden it and it contained the filthiest most depraved porn! Had he left it with the others, I’d never have even considered checking its content. But by moving it to a more secure area, he drew attention to it, which piqued my curiosity as to what was so special about this particular tape … |
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Post by mattg on Oct 14, 2023 8:00:06 GMT
Well each to their own Andy. That said, a fitting, illustrative microcosm of Phil’s dubious antics post 2013 can be found in an old social media post of his in which he, like many other fans, marked the annual anniversary of ‘Who’s very first transmission back in 1963. Naturally everyone else posted a picture of the 1st Doctor, Barbara, Ian and Susan as one would expect but not Phil. No, he decided to upload a telesnap from the currently missing episode 3 from Evil of the Daleks instead …Personally I don’t ascribe wilful mischief like that to mere naivety tbh… To me, this may be Phil's way of giving us a  of what is to come. 'Expect the unexpected' - as the man himself once said. A complete Evil of the Daleks was one of the first stories rumoured to have been found by Phil, don't forget. I think it was sensible of him not to upload a frame of a found episode of EOTD. Everyone would have gone mental - a bit like Bleeding Cool did. Also don't forget the BC rumour in August 2013 that EOTW WOF & MP were the only copies 'ready to go' at that stage, everything else apparently needing a helluva lot more restoration work done to it (think of that Morcambe and Wise film copy for example - and shudder). So EOTD may not have 'been ready' to extract a frame from. After WOF3 went missing, Phil wisely elected to do all restoration work in-house at TIEA, lest he be betrayed again. Phil has kept his cards close to his chest, and long may he continue to do so, until the big reveal comes, when his search and restoring what he's found is over. And I don't mind waiting another 10 years for it - just so long as 'something' comes back to us. Again, it's the entitled thing: I want, and I want it now. Yes Andy but Phil also later bitterly complained that intrusive fan scrutiny was impeding his business activities - a (metaphorical) blaze he had himself kindled lest we forget! That particular irony always seemed to be lost on him for some reason. Indeed, if I strongly hint to everyone I meet that I’ve got a load of gold stashed in my home I can’t really complain too much when the latter gets burgled! One has to question how hard would it have possibly been for Phil, when asked if he had more missing ‘Who to just say: ‘I don’t at present but the hunt goes on and I’m confident of further finds in the future’ or similar? He never could give a straight answer to a straight question even though there was every advantage for him to do so… |
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Post by Robert Mammone on Oct 14, 2023 10:32:29 GMT
Thank you very much, Andy. I still take Phil at his word. He is after all, boots-on-the-ground, his silence over what he has further recovered (since the discovery of no less than 12 episodes in Jos - 10 of which were MEs) is due to the 'apparent' theft of WOF3. Phil has said this is the reason himself, and I think this is evidence enough, the silence. I believe Phillip Morris is the saviour of missing episodes, 'God's man for the job' (if you like) in terms of bringing back what we always sensed, deep down, since 1981 would come back. Let's not forget that 'something else' went missing alongside WOF3 - which interestingly, Phil has never mentioned what this is. Many believe this is Marco Polo, due to the fact it was scheduled for release alongside EOTW and WOF - albeit reported by Bleeding Cool in August 2013 - and it was rumoured, or thought, on many a forum in June 2013, that 19 episodes had been found. 12 eps plus MP's 7 = 19. BTW I love Tim's podcasts - my favourite being the one which gave me the most ME hope was when he spoke to the authors of the long-outstanding book, Chasing Shadows. In it they mentioned that they had spoken to people who worked for TIEA, who had witnessed missing Doctor Who episodes coming back into the company, and that one would "be mad to believe" which episode titles they saw. There are exciting times to come IMHO, not only for Doctor Who fans. As Phil himself once said on Facebook, 'And feel fans of all lost television will be happy with the outcome.' All lost TV! Wow, just wow... Which episode of Tim's podcast are you referring to? Also, you have your information wrong there about the book. Which book are you actually talking about? |
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Post by anthonybartley on Oct 14, 2023 11:01:29 GMT
"But this is bigger than Doctor Who. This is eight thousand recovered films including the likes of missing Dad's Army, Out Of The Unknown, Morecambe And Wise, The Sky At Night and more. Including ninety missing Doctor Who films and potentially better quality prints of already recovered shows. Such as three separate sets of Doctor Who: Marco Polo – one poor quality, two in excellent nick."
From a previous post in this thread.
Does anyone really believe such a haul would be kept secret for so long? Also, unless someone really had done the impossible and dug up a landfill site with precise coordinates, how on earth did all of that end up stored away somewhere for so long?
I still maintain that nothing has been found or is hidden away, or in possession of a collector - and that all these discussions/rumours are being spread to hopefully coax something out from someone who isn't aware of what they have. Or, sadly more likely in my mind, there simply is nothing out there now. The format itself is so bulky and so unusable (to most) that it's hard to imagine some random person in a remote country happening on the reels and thinking "hey, I'll preserve this!". More likely it would go out in the rubbish pile at some point or buried in the rubble of the building over time.
Not to be a pessimist or anything but some of these past quotes really do beggar belief.
Still, it's one of those times when flogging a dead horse is usually a fun read/discussion.
If one single frame of lost Who turns up now, I'll eat the metal can it comes in.
Possibly.
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Post by Tim Burrows on Oct 14, 2023 11:12:42 GMT
Thank you very much, Andy. I still take Phil at his word. He is after all, boots-on-the-ground, his silence over what he has further recovered (since the discovery of no less than 12 episodes in Jos - 10 of which were MEs) is due to the 'apparent' theft of WOF3. Phil has said this is the reason himself, and I think this is evidence enough, the silence. I believe Phillip Morris is the saviour of missing episodes, 'God's man for the job' (if you like) in terms of bringing back what we always sensed, deep down, since 1981 would come back. Let's not forget that 'something else' went missing alongside WOF3 - which interestingly, Phil has never mentioned what this is. Many believe this is Marco Polo, due to the fact it was scheduled for release alongside EOTW and WOF - albeit reported by Bleeding Cool in August 2013 - and it was rumoured, or thought, on many a forum in June 2013, that 19 episodes had been found. 12 eps plus MP's 7 = 19. BTW I love Tim's podcasts - my favourite being the one which gave me the most ME hope was when he spoke to the authors of the long-outstanding book, Chasing Shadows. In it they mentioned that they had spoken to people who worked for TIEA, who had witnessed missing Doctor Who episodes coming back into the company, and that one would "be mad to believe" which episode titles they saw. There are exciting times to come IMHO, not only for Doctor Who fans. As Phil himself once said on Facebook, 'And feel fans of all lost television will be happy with the outcome.' All lost TV! Wow, just wow... Which episode of Tim's podcast are you referring to? Also, you have your information wrong there about the book. Which book are you actually talking about? I think Andy may be getting me and thee confused. It's natural enough, we sound very similar. |
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Post by andyeves on Oct 14, 2023 11:16:20 GMT
Does anyone really believe such a haul would be kept secret for so long? Also, unless someone really had done the impossible and dug up a landfill site with precise coordinates, how on earth did all of that end up stored away somewhere for so long? Well Phil did say that he was planning to hire a JCB to dig up possible disposal sites, so who knows ... LOL! Well, I'm rumblin' in this JCB
I'm 5 years old and my dad's giant sitting beside me
And the engine rattles my bum like berserk
While we're singin, "Don't forget your shovel if you want to go to work!" |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 14, 2023 14:14:11 GMT
Maybe Phil did find Marco Polo with the other prints in Jos before being stolen by a private collector. Maybe the Marco Polo prints had already been junked in Kaduna in the 1990s. Either way, we may never know.
It's also somewhat sad that Ian focused on Lagos in 1985 and only recovered the War Machines and The Time Meddler. Had he checked Jos and Kaduna as well, we may have gotten Web of Fear and The Enemy of the World back way earlier than we did, and perhaps Marco Polo and the Reign of Terror as well.
Again, we may never know for sure.
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Post by Paul Vanezis on Oct 14, 2023 14:33:19 GMT
In the above linked thread, Paul V writes something I’m struggling to understand - not what he said, but *why* he’d say it ? I’m absolutely sure Paul wouldn’t resent Missing Episode Hunter’s efforts to find missing episodes, but why warn against finding episodes? If it changes the prints’ fate, why is it safer to leave episodes to degrade in the heat of Jos, until they are ALL chucked out as worthless ? Would it have been better for these prints not to be discovered, but EOW3 would’ve still been there, if we could have our time again ? Most importantly, how could anyone have done anything differently based on following Paul’s circumspect advice ? OK, let's get something straight here. I was not proposing that Phil or anyone else should not look for material. But look at the facts; something that has been hidden or in storage undisturbed for many years, be it a roll of film or an archaeological artefact, is usually safe. It's safe until sunlight gets to it, or air, or dirty finger marks or third parties with other ideas about what should happen to it. The consequence of the advice should be to put in place, as far as possible mitigation to ensure the safety of whatever the 'something' is. My comment to Philip was for him to be aware of the consequences and act accordingly to protect material. This he thought he had done, but you can't always account for some random element throwing a spanner in the works. Paul |
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Post by andyparting on Oct 14, 2023 16:34:48 GMT
Yes, and now sadly it may be gone, along with WOF3  Now are we beginning to understand why Phil says so little - over such a long period of time? its rare you get me to bite again but I will. The problem with Phil is not his prolonged silence. In fact if he had never opened his mouth again after his initial recovery I think the state of fandom and rumour moungers would be far better. The problem is his "wind blowing in the right direction" amounting to nothing but thin air. Even Steve Roberts belief he had recovered Marco was due to phile over reaching comments. I'm very greatful for his recoveries of but I think his comments after have been frankly toxic for fandom and until he's ready to either tell a full and accounted story (I.e with evidence to back up wild claims) or hand more stuff back frankly I don't want to hear from him. People blindly hanging onto his every word that it must be fact because he's handed episodes back im the past need to have a reality check sometimes. Your words perfectly illustrate the very thing I've been pointing out on this thread, Barney. Phil goes quiet over what he has or is searching for, over a very long time, (during which some twit leaks a pic of him in Sierra Leone), and people give up waiting, come up with all kinds of conspiracy theories about WOF3 etc., etc., and draw a line that he must have nothing therefore. Again, it's the entitlement thing; I want it now - back in 2013 - and because I haven't got 'it' by 2023, Phil must therefore have nothing to - and my choice of word is poignant here - surrender to us. Like he has to hand over anything to us, for cripes' sake. |
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Post by andyparting on Oct 14, 2023 16:37:25 GMT
He's referring to the fact that Phil instructed his employee to move this batch to a more secure area, which he did so in full view of the Jos station manager ... which drew attention to them ... which piqued his curiosity as to what was so special about this particular batch of films ... As has already been highlighted, this thread is largely re-treading old ground, but I’m going to briefly recount a personal experience that has parallels … Back in 1989, my then-lodger kept his VHS tapes in the lounge. One afternoon, when he went upstairs to his bedroom soon after I’d come home unexpectedly, he took one tape with him. After he’d gone out, I located where he’d hidden it and it contained the filthiest most depraved porn! Had he left it with the others, I’d never have even considered checking its content. But by moving it to a more secure area, he drew attention to it, which piqued my curiosity as to what was so special about this particular tape … If this thread is largely re-treading old ground, Andy, then please do shoot the messenger who started this thread. |
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Post by andyparting on Oct 14, 2023 16:44:09 GMT
Which episode of Tim's podcast are you referring to? Also, you have your information wrong there about the book. Which book are you actually talking about? I think Andy may be getting me and thee confused. It's natural enough, we sound very similar. Tim, why are you asking "which of Tim's podcasts", when you know all of your podcasts?? You know you did a podcast interview with Dave Hoskins some years ago. Sorry, I cannot recall the exact number. - Andy P.S - Here's a mention of the book, from the voice of sanity, Dan Hall - dantalksdoctorwho.wordpress.com/2016/03/08/source-more-material-to-come/- Andy |
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Post by andyparting on Oct 14, 2023 16:45:11 GMT
In the above linked thread, Paul V writes something I’m struggling to understand - not what he said, but *why* he’d say it ? I’m absolutely sure Paul wouldn’t resent Missing Episode Hunter’s efforts to find missing episodes, but why warn against finding episodes? If it changes the prints’ fate, why is it safer to leave episodes to degrade in the heat of Jos, until they are ALL chucked out as worthless ? Would it have been better for these prints not to be discovered, but EOW3 would’ve still been there, if we could have our time again ? Most importantly, how could anyone have done anything differently based on following Paul’s circumspect advice ? OK, let's get something straight here. I was not proposing that Phil or anyone else should not look for material. But look at the facts; something that has been hidden or in storage undisturbed for many years, be it a roll of film or an archaeological artefact, is usually safe. It's safe until sunlight gets to it, or air, or dirty finger marks or third parties with other ideas about what should happen to it. The consequence of the advice should be to put in place, as far as possible mitigation to ensure the safety of whatever the 'something' is. My comment to Philip was for him to be aware of the consequences and act accordingly to protect material. This he thought he had done, but you can't always account for some random element throwing a spanner in the works. Paul Thanks, Paul, for bringing some sanity to this thread. |
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Post by andyeves on Oct 14, 2023 16:45:51 GMT
As has already been highlighted, this thread is largely re-treading old ground, but I’m going to briefly recount a personal experience that has parallels … Back in 1989, my then-lodger kept his VHS tapes in the lounge. One afternoon, when he went upstairs to his bedroom soon after I’d come home unexpectedly, he took one tape with him. After he’d gone out, I located where he’d hidden it and it contained the filthiest most depraved porn! Had he left it with the others, I’d never have even considered checking its content. But by moving it to a more secure area, he drew attention to it, which piqued my curiosity as to what was so special about this particular tape … If this thread is largely re-treading old ground, Andy, then please do shoot the messenger who started this thread. It would be my absolute pleasure, Andy! Seriously though, although it is re-treading old ground to a certain extent, there are many new members since it was last discussed including the OP. |
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of what is to come. 'Expect the unexpected' - as the man himself once said. A complete Evil of the Daleks was one of the first stories rumoured to have been found by Phil, don't forget. I think it was sensible of him not to upload a frame of a found episode of EOTD. Everyone would have gone mental - a bit like Bleeding Cool did. Also don't forget the BC rumour in August 2013 that EOTW WOF & MP were the only copies 'ready to go' at that stage, everything else apparently needing a helluva lot more restoration work done to it (think of that Morcambe and Wise film copy for example - and shudder). So EOTD may not have 'been ready' to extract a frame from. After WOF3 went missing, Phil wisely elected to do all restoration work in-house at TIEA, lest he be betrayed again. Phil has kept his cards close to his chest, and long may he continue to do so, until the big reveal comes, when his search and restoring what he's found is over. And I don't mind waiting another 10 years for it - just so long as 'something' comes back to us. Again, it's the entitled thing: I want, and I want it now.
Now are we beginning to understand why Phil says so little - over such a long period of time?