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Post by simonashby on Oct 11, 2023 10:13:23 GMT
I feel like we're just re-treading well trodden ground for no reason again. Just because someone doesn't think one particular thing happened (based on lack of evidence) doesn't mean they have a specific alternative in mind. Looking at it rationally, the only reasonable answer with the info we have is: "We don't know". We can offer an idea - PM was good enough to offer his. "We don't know" is more a case of treading old ground. Point is, no one ever has offered a satisfactory alternative explination, which is why, so far, I'm sticking to PM's version. The line about treading old ground was in reference to Angel starting this thread, hence why it was at the top of my reply. However what you say is fine and you're entitled to stick to PM's version, however it does not undo my point. If you don't totally buy into what PM has said, there is absolutely not reason why you should have to have an alternative theory. We're only people looking in using the little info we have - so no, we can't really 'offer an idea'. Information and evidence is thin on the ground, the whole matter is shrouded in secrecy, PM hasn't necessarily been the most reliable communicator. It's fine to say 'we don't know' - because we really objectively don't. Heck, even PM's theory is only a theory. |
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Post by andyparting on Oct 11, 2023 11:11:45 GMT
We can offer an idea - PM was good enough to offer his. "We don't know" is more a case of treading old ground. Point is, no one ever has offered a satisfactory alternative explination, which is why, so far, I'm sticking to PM's version. You don't think the scenario that the Jos station manager destroyed the tape to hide the evidence of his crime is a satisfactory alternative? If so, you should try telling that to the likes of Richard M & Paul V, both of whom are on record as stating that they believe this to be the most likely scenario. Personally, I believe Phil's interpretation of the manager's actions & subsequent words are incorrect, and the most likely scenario is that Phil drew attention to these tapes by moving them to a secure area, which piqued his curiosity ... It may yet be in private hands (he may have proactively found himself a buyer or may have subsequently been contacted by someone in the know), but I'm now in the camp who believes that it was most likely destroyed. No I don't see that as a likely scenario whatsoever. As an X-File conspiracy theory, yes. Philip Morris was there in-person, boots-on-the-ground, while we were at our keyboards, theorising. He since made a statement in front of many witnesses at a Doctor Who event as to what happened - that he was betrayed by a member of his team - the story of which which went online shortly after. He has not deviated from this story since, and has given us updates as to tracing the episode. If anything, it has given us an insight into the shady side of collecting - not just films - but the lengths some crooks will go to acquire something not theirs & the fact you can trust very few people. There was no tape involved, only film, although I did recall that the something else taken along with the 16mm WOF3 was a tape, and there are indeed tapes among PM's photo of the 12 film cans he took. |
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Post by andyeves on Oct 11, 2023 11:33:56 GMT
You don't think the scenario that the Jos station manager destroyed the tape to hide the evidence of his crime is a satisfactory alternative? If so, you should try telling that to the likes of Richard M & Paul V, both of whom are on record as stating that they believe this to be the most likely scenario. Personally, I believe Phil's interpretation of the manager's actions & subsequent words are incorrect, and the most likely scenario is that Phil drew attention to these tapes by moving them to a secure area, which piqued his curiosity ... It may yet be in private hands (he may have proactively found himself a buyer or may have subsequently been contacted by someone in the know), but I'm now in the camp who believes that it was most likely destroyed. No I don't see that as a likely scenario whatsoever. As an X-File conspiracy theory, yes. Philip Morris was there in-person, boots-on-the-ground, while we were at our keyboards, theorising. He since made a statement in front of many witnesses at a Doctor Who event as to what happened - that he was betrayed by a member of his team - the story of which which went online shortly after. He has not deviated from this story since, and has given us updates as to tracing the episode. If anything, it has given us an insight into the shady side of collecting - not just films - but the lengths some crooks will go to acquire something not theirs & the fact you can trust very few people. There was no tape involved, only film, although I did recall that the something else taken along with the 16mm WOF3 was a tape, and there are indeed tapes among PM's photo of the 12 film cans he took. Please enlighten us: 1) What evidence has Phil provided (that you are aware of) that the Jos Station Manager took WOF3 because he’d already been approached by someone within whom Phil had trusted, and this simply isn’t Phil's interpretation of this guy’s actions & subsequent words? 2) You say that Phil “… has given us updates as to tracing the episode …” Please give us some specifics which provide further evidence, or at least lend further weight, to the fact that’s Phil’s theory is correct. I’m intrigued! Thanks |
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Post by andyparting on Oct 11, 2023 12:04:51 GMT
No I don't see that as a likely scenario whatsoever. As an X-File conspiracy theory, yes. Philip Morris was there in-person, boots-on-the-ground, while we were at our keyboards, theorising. He since made a statement in front of many witnesses at a Doctor Who event as to what happened - that he was betrayed by a member of his team - the story of which which went online shortly after. He has not deviated from this story since, and has given us updates as to tracing the episode. If anything, it has given us an insight into the shady side of collecting - not just films - but the lengths some crooks will go to acquire something not theirs & the fact you can trust very few people. There was no tape involved, only film, although I did recall that the something else taken along with the 16mm WOF3 was a tape, and there are indeed tapes among PM's photo of the 12 film cans he took. Please enlighten us: 1) What evidence has Phil provided (that you are aware of) that the Jos Station Manager took WOF3 because he’d already been approached by someone within whom Phil had trusted, and this simply isn’t Phil's interpretation of this guy’s actions & subsequent words? 2) You say that Phil “… has given us updates as to tracing the episode …” Please give us some specifics which provide further evidence, or at least lend further weight, to the fact that’s Phil’s theory is correct. I’m intrigued! Thanks The evidence is enough from Phil's testimony as a man who's put his boots on the ground, seen and experienced all this first hand. What moire evidence do you need, from a man who's given us EOTW and WOF for cripes sake?! Don't you trust his word? Do you even trust yourself, Andy?? |
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Post by andyeves on Oct 11, 2023 12:12:48 GMT
Please enlighten us: 1) What evidence has Phil provided (that you are aware of) that the Jos Station Manager took WOF3 because he’d already been approached by someone within whom Phil had trusted, and this simply isn’t Phil's interpretation of this guy’s actions & subsequent words? 2) You say that Phil “… has given us updates as to tracing the episode …” Please give us some specifics which provide further evidence, or at least lend further weight, to the fact that’s Phil’s theory is correct. I’m intrigued! Thanks The evidence is enough from Phil's testimony as a man who's put his boots on the ground, seen and experienced all this first hand. What moire evidence do you need, from a man who's given us EOTW and WOF for cripes sake?! Don't you trust his word? Do you even trust yourself, Andy?? Is that it? I was rather hoping you would back up your assertions in a reasoned & mature manner with some specifics ... |
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Post by andyparting on Oct 11, 2023 13:13:44 GMT
The evidence is enough from Phil's testimony as a man who's put his boots on the ground, seen and experienced all this first hand. What moire evidence do you need, from a man who's given us EOTW and WOF for cripes sake?! Don't you trust his word? Do you even trust yourself, Andy?? Is that it? I was rather hoping you would back up your assertions in a reasoned & mature manner with some specifics ... That's it. No need when someone has given you truth. The mature manner is to show some trust in turn. |
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Post by andyeves on Oct 11, 2023 14:14:53 GMT
So if Phil is convinced that the Jos guy was tapped up and that it is in private hands, that’s good enough for you even though he’s provided no evidence for this other than his interpretation of the manager’s actions & subsequent words.
Fair enough. I defend people’s right to form their opinion in whatever manner they so choose, even if it based solely on trust, gut feel, flipping a coin ... Just providing they’re honest about what their opinion is based on.
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Post by andyparting on Oct 11, 2023 14:28:02 GMT
So if Phil is convinced that the Jos guy was tapped up and that it is in private hands, that’s good enough for you even though he’s provided no evidence for this other than his interpretation of the manager’s actions & subsequent words. Fair enough. I defend people’s right to form their opinion in whatever manner they so choose, even if it based solely on trust, gut feel, flipping a coin ... Just providing they’re honest about what their opinion is based on. Here you are, Andy, just to refresh your memory - www.doctorwhonews.net/2015/10/photograph-of-complete-web-of-fear-and.html"I defend people’s right to form their opinion in whatever manner they so choose, even if it based solely on trust, gut feel, flipping a coin ... Just providing they’re honest about what their opinion is based on..." - Sure, sure. When you go home, just look at your TV, and tell yourself that, in your opinion it's actually a washing machine. And then try putting your dirty linen in it - for a fact. |
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Post by andyeves on Oct 11, 2023 14:49:30 GMT
So if Phil is convinced that the Jos guy was tapped up and that it is in private hands, that’s good enough for you even though he’s provided no evidence for this other than his interpretation of the manager’s actions & subsequent words. Fair enough. I defend people’s right to form their opinion in whatever manner they so choose, even if it based solely on trust, gut feel, flipping a coin ... Just providing they’re honest about what their opinion is based on. Here you are, Andy, just to refresh your memory - www.doctorwhonews.net/2015/10/photograph-of-complete-web-of-fear-and.html"I defend people’s right to form their opinion in whatever manner they so choose, even if it based solely on trust, gut feel, flipping a coin ... Just providing they’re honest about what their opinion is based on..." - Sure, sure. When you go home, just look at your TV, and tell yourself that, in your opinion it's actually a washing machine. And then try putting your dirty linen in it - for a fact. Have you been smoking something?!? I could tell myself that my TV is my washing machine, but it wouldn't be my opinion as I wouldn't actually believe it! But if you genuinely believe that your TV is your washing machine then I'll defend your right to hold this opinion, even though I'd disagree to the point of thinking that you're totally deranged! To defend one's right to form their opinion in whatever way they so choose doesn't mean that I agree with them or think they're correct ... or I don't think they're totally off their head!!! Anyway, you've further convinced me of what was already fairly evident, that you're totally incapable of having an intellectual, mature & reasoned discussion and so I'll now allow you to have the last word ... See if you can prove me wrong by saying something that is actually intellectual. |
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Post by andyparting on Oct 11, 2023 15:44:26 GMT
Here you are, Andy, just to refresh your memory - www.doctorwhonews.net/2015/10/photograph-of-complete-web-of-fear-and.html"I defend people’s right to form their opinion in whatever manner they so choose, even if it based solely on trust, gut feel, flipping a coin ... Just providing they’re honest about what their opinion is based on..." - Sure, sure. When you go home, just look at your TV, and tell yourself that, in your opinion it's actually a washing machine. And then try putting your dirty linen in it - for a fact. Have you been smoking something?!? I could tell myself that my TV is my washing machine, but it wouldn't be my opinion as I wouldn't actually believe it! But if you genuinely believe that your TV is your washing machine then I'll defend your right to hold this opinion, even though I'd disagree to the point of thinking that you're totally deranged! To defend one's right to form their opinion in whatever way they so choose doesn't mean that I agree with them or think they're correct ... or I don't think they're totally off their head!!! Anyway, you've further convinced me of what was already fairly evident, that you're totally incapable of having an intellectual, mature & reasoned discussion and so I'll now allow you to have the last word ... See if you can prove me wrong by saying something that is actually intellectual. No, not been smoking a thing, but have just been attending to someone who has, and seeing the effect of it on his life, so please don't make glib jokes like that about it, thank you, Andy. Anyway - I've sent you the link, that's all one can say on the matter of facts. Time for someone else to pitch in on opinions, given that someone set the ginger-cat  among the pigeons yesterday eve. |
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Post by Tim Burrows on Oct 11, 2023 22:45:37 GMT
But the detail in that article doesn’t match his other accounts nor the verifiable facts available with a little searching online.
It’s nonsense.
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Post by andyeves on Oct 12, 2023 0:04:26 GMT
But the detail in that article doesn’t match his other accounts nor the verifiable facts available with a little searching online. It’s nonsense. Well said, Tim. The article says " No undue attention was drawn to the Doctor Who prints by myself or any of my staff ...", although it does also acknowledge " I instructed one of my trusted team to ensure the Doctor Who prints were hidden." Phil has confirmed (during interviews) that the film cans were snaffled whilst that batch was being moved to a secure area for safekeeping. In other words, he drew attention to it!!! |
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Post by andyparting on Oct 12, 2023 5:29:31 GMT
This is still not enough to go agsinst PM's testimony - before many witnesses - that WOF3 was stolen.
I found it interesting too that when asked if he thought that WOF3 being stolen was significant to the theft he'd didn't think so, just a case of one randomn episode being stolen.
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Post by andyeves on Oct 12, 2023 6:41:08 GMT
For anyone who hasn't already, I'd recommend having a listen to: Ty pe 40 • A Doctor Who Podcast #70 - Missing Episodes with Richard Molesworth
It's a cracking & insightful interview and he gives his take on the WOF3 debacle. Also available here: www.youtube.com/watch?v=YGFiPIsVaEs |
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Richard Develyn
Member
Living in hope that more missing episodes will come back to us.
Posts: 574
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Post by Richard Develyn on Oct 12, 2023 10:24:34 GMT
I can't imagine the Jos station manager destroying WoF 3. I can imagine him taking it home and hiding it under the mattress. After all, no one is going to get a search warrant for your house on the basis of a film print and, you never know, maybe one day you might make some money out of it.
Or, even if all that logic didn't work for him, the safest thing to do would be for him to mislay it somewhere else within the TV station then pretend he knew nothing about it.
If you did destroy it, how would you do it and where would you hide the remains? After all, if someone did find some of the remains, that would show that the film can had been taken and destroyed by someone. That seems far riskier to me than just casually mislaying it somewhere.
Just musing :-)
Richard
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among the pigeons yesterday eve. 
