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Post by brianfretwell on Jan 9, 2014 20:45:17 GMT
So this isn't the $64,000 question but the 64,000 film can question!!!
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Post by shellyharman67 on Jan 9, 2014 20:47:44 GMT
So this isn't the $64,000 question but the 64,000 film can question!!! At the end of the day too many people from various sources have said the haul is big ! But how big ? I would be amazed if a lot of who was not in that ! They mat be dupes of course ! But with that many who knows  |
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Post by Neil Lambess on Jan 10, 2014 1:38:39 GMT
Sounds like the 64,000 can rumour I'm trying to contemplate the size of room needed to store that many prints. Roughly 400-800 square metres, depending on shelving type and layout when TVNZ took its expired film cans and stored them in shipping containers at wellington in the 80s over 10,000 16 mm film prints took up two shipping containers ... so 64,000 could fit quite happilly in 13 shipping containers ....... |
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Post by johnforbes on Jan 10, 2014 5:44:57 GMT
When it comes to overseas stuff, what you do need to consider is the amount of stuff the BBC (and ITV) were selling (in Africa)at the time.
Different cultures may not like some shows that the Brits produced. I'd imagine, that if you managed to get some old English, and specifically, BBC material, back from a foreign African archive or TV station, that you'd stand a quite reasonable chance of it being Doctor Who, given how widely it was sold.
We haven't had any announcements since WoF/EotW, but, that doesn't mean any announcements aren't forthcoming in the near future.
As for private collectors,I do find the couple of eps thing strange. We already know with RoT, that 3 and 6 were sold at different times, however, they are extremely likely to have been taken together at the same time.
Back when the episodes we now know were lifted, were lifted, there was no such things as "missing episodes". Certainly by 1978, junkings had finished. However some of the eps were still on sale in the early-mid 80's.
Going back even earlier, when they were actually lifted, in the early to mid-late 70's, if they were lifted to try and make a few quid, they'd have realistically been sold asap, so that the lifter no longer has any evidence left.
The "lifted" returns we have had back so far, are from sales in the 80's. I just don't think that every "lifted" episode is going to have been sat in someone's garage in all those intervening years until they decide to sell it. Some, will have undoubtedly, been sold in the 70's, but, these have so far, not come to light.
I'd be of the opinion, that the further back you go, the more chance you have of complete stories being sold/swapped/traded. If you have a complete story that you have bought/swapped/traded, I just don't think you are going to part with it easily, it will be treasured. And STILL, even with the coverage Doctor Who has had, you may STILL not know you have an entire missing story in your collection.
The wide media coverage, NEVER lists the stories/episodes which are STILL missing. Therefore, unless someone cba to get off their backside and search the internet etc, they STILL won't know they have an entire missing story or ep/eps. And in all the intervening years since they acquired it/them, may have even forgotten that they have it (senile dementia etc etc).
Yes, 100% sure more stuff is in pvivate hands. Don't forget, iirc, the collecting community in NZ/Aus (both ?) were telling Grenville not to hand 'The Lion' back in.
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Post by shellyharman67 on Jan 10, 2014 6:33:45 GMT
Also in Africa, if they were handed around to other countries unofficially we have to consider that there are French, and portuguese speaking countries in that region ! We cant rule out anything that is possible.
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Post by johnforbes on Jan 10, 2014 6:42:40 GMT
Also in Africa, if they were handed around to other countries unofficially we have to consider that there are French, and portuguese speaking countries in that region ! We cant rule out anything that is possible. Unoficcial bicycling probably never happened. A: It's espensive to send them. B: There's no record of any country broadcasting DW other than those who actually paid to do so. C: When asked to bicycle prints on, the countries who were asked to do so always did so without saying "there will be a (insert period) delay while we get them back from (insert) who broadasted the eps unoficially because we unoficially lent them to them" |
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Post by shellyharman67 on Jan 10, 2014 7:07:56 GMT
Also in Africa, if they were handed around to other countries unofficially we have to consider that there are French, and portuguese speaking countries in that region ! We cant rule out anything that is possible. Unoficcial bicycling probably never happened. A: It's espensive to send them. B: There's no record of any country broadcasting DW other than those who actually paid to do so. C: When asked to bicycle prints on, the countries who were asked to do so always did so without saying "there will be a (insert period) delay while we get them back from (insert) who broadasted the eps unoficially because we unoficially lent them to them" I guess we just dont really know. And these places dont play by the rules most times. Worth covering every angle tho. |
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Post by John Wall on Jan 10, 2014 10:43:03 GMT
When it comes to overseas stuff, what you do need to consider is the amount of stuff the BBC (and ITV) were selling (in Africa)at the time. Different cultures may not like some shows that the Brits produced. I'd imagine, that if you managed to get some old English, and specifically, BBC material, back from a foreign African archive or TV station, that you'd stand a quite reasonable chance of it being Doctor Who, given how widely it was sold. We haven't had any announcements since WoF/EotW, but, that doesn't mean any announcements aren't forthcoming in the near future. As for private collectors,I do find the couple of eps thing strange. We already know with RoT, that 3 and 6 were sold at different times, however, they are extremely likely to have been taken together at the same time. Back when the episodes we now know were lifted, were lifted, there was no such things as "missing episodes". Certainly by 1978, junkings had finished. However some of the eps were still on sale in the early-mid 80's. Going back even earlier, when they were actually lifted, in the early to mid-late 70's, if they were lifted to try and make a few quid, they'd have realistically been sold asap, so that the lifter no longer has any evidence left. The "lifted" returns we have had back so far, are from sales in the 80's. I just don't think that every "lifted" episode is going to have been sat in someone's garage in all those intervening years until they decide to sell it. Some, will have undoubtedly, been sold in the 70's, but, these have so far, not come to light. I'd be of the opinion, that the further back you go, the more chance you have of complete stories being sold/swapped/traded. If you have a complete story that you have bought/swapped/traded, I just don't think you are going to part with it easily, it will be treasured. And STILL, even with the coverage Doctor Who has had, you may STILL not know you have an entire missing story in your collection. The wide media coverage, NEVER lists the stories/episodes which are STILL missing. Therefore, unless someone cba to get off their backside and search the internet etc, they STILL won't know they have an entire missing story or ep/eps. And in all the intervening years since they acquired it/them, may have even forgotten that they have it (senile dementia etc etc). Yes, 100% sure more stuff is in pvivate hands. Don't forget, iirc, the collecting community in NZ/Aus (both ?) were telling Grenville not to hand 'The Lion' back in. Still projecting back our 2013 views and priorities - desperation.... What we actually have is some prints that came back in the mid 70s and were, almost certainly, "lifted" at that time. Going back any earlier doesn't make it any more likely that complete stories exist in private hands. There is still no credible mechanism - other than the opportunistic magpie - for those prints getting into private collections. Other than to an extremely few people - such as Ian Levine - these things just weren't seen as important or valuable  |
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Post by shellyharman67 on Jan 10, 2014 10:46:02 GMT
Odds and sods most likely from time to time.
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Post by johnforbes on Jan 10, 2014 11:30:23 GMT
When it comes to overseas stuff, what you do need to consider is the amount of stuff the BBC (and ITV) were selling (in Africa)at the time. Different cultures may not like some shows that the Brits produced. I'd imagine, that if you managed to get some old English, and specifically, BBC material, back from a foreign African archive or TV station, that you'd stand a quite reasonable chance of it being Doctor Who, given how widely it was sold. We haven't had any announcements since WoF/EotW, but, that doesn't mean any announcements aren't forthcoming in the near future. As for private collectors,I do find the couple of eps thing strange. We already know with RoT, that 3 and 6 were sold at different times, however, they are extremely likely to have been taken together at the same time. Back when the episodes we now know were lifted, were lifted, there was no such things as "missing episodes". Certainly by 1978, junkings had finished. However some of the eps were still on sale in the early-mid 80's. Going back even earlier, when they were actually lifted, in the early to mid-late 70's, if they were lifted to try and make a few quid, they'd have realistically been sold asap, so that the lifter no longer has any evidence left. The "lifted" returns we have had back so far, are from sales in the 80's. I just don't think that every "lifted" episode is going to have been sat in someone's garage in all those intervening years until they decide to sell it. Some, will have undoubtedly, been sold in the 70's, but, these have so far, not come to light. I'd be of the opinion, that the further back you go, the more chance you have of complete stories being sold/swapped/traded. If you have a complete story that you have bought/swapped/traded, I just don't think you are going to part with it easily, it will be treasured. And STILL, even with the coverage Doctor Who has had, you may STILL not know you have an entire missing story in your collection. The wide media coverage, NEVER lists the stories/episodes which are STILL missing. Therefore, unless someone cba to get off their backside and search the internet etc, they STILL won't know they have an entire missing story or ep/eps. And in all the intervening years since they acquired it/them, may have even forgotten that they have it (senile dementia etc etc). Yes, 100% sure more stuff is in pvivate hands. Don't forget, iirc, the collecting community in NZ/Aus (both ?) were telling Grenville not to hand 'The Lion' back in. Still projecting back our 2013 views and priorities - desperation.... What we actually have is some prints that came back in the mid 70s and were, almost certainly, "lifted" at that time. Going back any earlier doesn't make it any more likely that complete stories exist in private hands. There is still no credible mechanism - other than the opportunistic magpie - for those prints getting into private collections. Other than to an extremely few people - such as Ian Levine - these things just weren't seen as important or valuable I'm not projecting my values back anywhere, they're the same values I've always had  I'll always be a collector/hoarder of stuff that I like, and I've been this way for quite a number of decades. I'm sure Ian wasn't/isn't the only fan of Doctor Who who would have wanted to acquire the prints. But, finances, and maybe more crucially, location, played a big part in Ian getting there first. If as I presume he lived in the London area, a quick trip down to the beeb is more easily done than by Joe Bloggs living in (insert). As for the crate that came back, it was in 1975, I really can't imagine every magpie would sit on their magpied prints upwards of 5 years or more before deciding to sell them at car boot sales and the like. Some will have undoubtedly ended up in collectors' hands long before then if the sole intent of the magpies taking the prints in the first place was to make a few quid. |
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Post by shellyharman67 on Jan 10, 2014 11:51:45 GMT
There are no doubt selfish hoarders out there. But how many. A few a would suspect !
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Post by John Wall on Jan 10, 2014 12:06:29 GMT
Still projecting back our 2013 views and priorities - desperation.... What we actually have is some prints that came back in the mid 70s and were, almost certainly, "lifted" at that time. Going back any earlier doesn't make it any more likely that complete stories exist in private hands. There is still no credible mechanism - other than the opportunistic magpie - for those prints getting into private collections. Other than to an extremely few people - such as Ian Levine - these things just weren't seen as important or valuable I'm not projecting my values back anywhere, they're the same values I've always had I'll always be a collector/hoarder of stuff that I like, and I've been this way for quite a number of decades. I'm sure Ian wasn't/isn't the only fan of Doctor Who who would have wanted to acquire the prints. But, finances, and maybe more crucially, location, played a big part in Ian getting there first. If as I presume he lived in the London area, a quick trip down to the beeb is more easily done than by Joe Bloggs living in (insert). As for the crate that came back, it was in 1975, I really can't imagine every magpie would sit on their magpied prints upwards of 5 years or more before deciding to sell them at car boot sales and the like. Some will have undoubtedly ended up in collectors' hands long before then if the sole intent of the magpies taking the prints in the first place was to make a few quid. Unless you take the time to actually understand how things were at the time and what was, or wasn't, available you're wasting your - and our time. If someone was a really keen - and wealthy - fan in the late 60s or early 70s they could have bought an early video recorder. Despite decades of looking the result is virtually nothing A bit of Space Pirates almost survived but what about POTD3 or IOTD1 ? They were 1973/4 but no recordings were either made or have been found How do you know that the original magpie was the one selling things at car boot sales ? Think of Airlock and UM2, they came back from Australia and went through several people's hands before the guy who returned them acquired them. Somebody dies and their widow clears out the cupboard under the stairs that's full of 16mm cans. It's amazing what does get thrown out. I've heard of photographers whose collections were just thrown away when they died - in many cases priceless records of social history just went |
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Post by Richard Marple on Jan 10, 2014 13:31:35 GMT
Didn't some of John Cura's telesnaps ended up binned by relatives who didn't realise their importance?
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Post by John Wall on Jan 10, 2014 13:34:31 GMT
Didn't some of John Cura's telesnaps ended up binned by relatives who didn't realise their importance? I think you're right The original negatives never turned up either I'm not sure whether he binned them after selling the prints or whether they were just thrown away when he died. |
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Post by Charlii on Jan 10, 2014 13:41:44 GMT
And if that could happen to original material that he was known to sell for his living, imagine how easy it would be to throw away junk like very old video tapes...
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