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Post by johnforbes on Jan 8, 2014 11:32:01 GMT
Over the years, a surprisingly large number of missing/better quality episodes have been recovered from either private hands or public sale.
Crusade 1 (NZ)
Reign of Terror 3, 6
Reign of Terror 1 (original suppressed field, NOT a dupe)
Abominable Snowmen 2
Space Museum 1 & Moonbase 4 (both better quality)
Invasion of Dinosaurs 1
Time Meddler 1 & 3
Wheel in Space 3
Faceless Ones 3
Evil of the Daleks 2
Dominators 5 (source or how it was returned, unknown)
It would surely seem too good to be true to think that this is it, and these are an accurate 100% record of everything that wound up in private hands after supposedly being destroyed/junked.
Faceless Ones 3 & EOTD 2 were supposedly bought at a film fair as late as 1982. That's quite a number of years after junkings/destruction stopped. What about the intervening years when stuff is more likely to have been offered for sale ?
Do you believe that more currently missing stuff is out there in private hands (and I don't mean PM's).
I'd say it is too good to be true that absolutely everything that went walkies was sold to the type of people who later decided to hand it back in for nothing rather than keep it and try to make a few bucks out of the BBC's stupidity.
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Post by Greg H on Jan 8, 2014 12:02:53 GMT
If we are talking opinion rather than definitive facts, I would find it more odd if a few things hadn't found their way into private hands, much more odd than nothing else having done.
I wouldn't be too surprised of there is at least one person who is hanging on to something missing in full knowledge of what they have. This is just my view of things though. Not everyone plays nice.
We have a fair few examples of collectors hanging on to bits of missing television for whatever reason, so I wouldn't be completely floored if this has happened somewhere along the line.
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Post by shellyharman67 on Jan 8, 2014 12:19:50 GMT
If we are talking opinion rather than definitive facts, I would find it more odd if a few things hadn't found their way into private hands, much more odd than nothing else having done. I wouldn't be too surprised of there is at least one person who is hanging on to something missing in full knowledge of what they have. This is just my view of things though. Not everyone plays nice. We have a fair few examples of collectors hanging on to bits of missing television for whatever reason, so I wouldn't be completely floored if this has happened somewhere along the line. Agree greg ! I have to say i think there are a few a-holes doing this ! |
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Post by Greg H on Jan 8, 2014 12:27:12 GMT
If we are talking opinion rather than definitive facts, I would find it more odd if a few things hadn't found their way into private hands, much more odd than nothing else having done. I wouldn't be too surprised of there is at least one person who is hanging on to something missing in full knowledge of what they have. This is just my view of things though. Not everyone plays nice. We have a fair few examples of collectors hanging on to bits of missing television for whatever reason, so I wouldn't be completely floored if this has happened somewhere along the line. Agree greg ! I have to say i think there are a few a-holes doing this ! I mean I can't prove anything and I do not think it is anything that will have happened recently, but knowing human nature I can't help but suppose that someone back along the way in the 80s or 90s might have found something and decided to sit on it for their own personal gloat. I just find it hard to believe that everyone who found something is possessed of the same spirit of altruism as I am. |
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Post by shellyharman67 on Jan 8, 2014 12:33:52 GMT
Agree greg ! I have to say i think there are a few a-holes doing this ! I mean I can't prove anything and I do not think it is anything that will have happened recently, but knowing human nature I can't help but suppose that someone back along the way in the 80s or 90s might have found something and decided to sit on it for their own personal gloat. I just find it hard to believe that everyone who found something is possessed of the same spirit of altruism as I am. I know there will be some people like that out there. Its sad really, but they need to understand that they wont live forever !!!  |
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Post by johnforbes on Jan 8, 2014 12:39:36 GMT
I mean I can't prove anything and I do not think it is anything that will have happened recently, but knowing human nature I can't help but suppose that someone back along the way in the 80s or 90s might have found something and decided to sit on it for their own personal gloat. I just find it hard to believe that everyone who found something is possessed of the same spirit of altruism as I am. I know there will be some people like that out there. Its sad really, but they need to understand that they wont live forever !!! True, but, some people do like to take stuff with them anyway. Just look at the ancient Egyptians and everything they had buried with them when they went. |
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Post by Greg H on Jan 8, 2014 12:40:07 GMT
Hopefully if this hypothetical type does indeed exist they won't have them buried with them.
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Post by simonashby on Jan 8, 2014 13:17:09 GMT
I hope not. The last thing we need is some enthusiastic, yet misguided, fans spearheading a sudden increase in shovel sales. ...  |
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Post by John Wall on Jan 8, 2014 14:17:15 GMT
Paul V, is, I think, on record - before PM/Nigeria ! - as saying that he believed the best option for future recoveries was private collectors and I, amongst others, agreed with him. After the recoveries of Airlock and UM2 there were lengthy discussions here about how to get the message out to private collectors. It's important to remember that the odd episodes recovered (such as the Lion, Airlock, UM2, and the DMP episode) were held by people who didn't know they were missing. I definitely think that there may, still, be episodes in private collections. However, I'd expect them to be "orphans" that were somehow acquired before they could be destroyed. Complete stories have only been recovered from foreign broadcasters. I'm not necessarily convinced that there are collectors "hoarding" episodes for financial gain - although the pleasure of owning something unique can't be ruled out. Something is worth what someone is prepared to pay for it - and being unique increases the price. If you had a missing episode of Dr Who and you knew it was missing you'd also be aware that people are actively searching. A copy of WoF5 would have lost a lot of value after the PM recoveries were announced. There was a lot of publicity when UM2 and Airlock were returned and even more for EotW/WoF, it was also "revealed" that PM was still looking and other leads were being followed up. The "response" to both announcements can best be described as disappointing  The status of any episode can be checked online in about 30 seconds. If altruistic collectors held episodes they knew were missing why haven't they come forward ? If missing episodes were being held for financial gain why haven't they been put up for sale ? Anybody knowing they held a missing episode could easily discover that they can sell the medium even though the copyright of the content is held by Auntie and that there are people like IL around with deep pockets, etc, etc. Unless someone is betting that something they hold won't turn up from another source I don't believe anybody is sitting on a missing episode as an investment. The other option is the altruistic collector who doesn't know they've got something missing. It's surprising, considering how widespread internet access is, but proven with UM2 and Airlock. |
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Post by johnforbes on Jan 8, 2014 15:00:27 GMT
Many people enjoy knowing that they own something which in all likelihood no one else has got, irrespective of how much it is worth.
If a person can afford to collect 16mm films as a hobby, they might not need the money that a missing ep might bring them. Therefore its one of a kind satisfaction value is, for them, greater than its financial one.
It seems to have taken an awful long time for some of those orphans to come onto the market. 2 of them in 1982, and who knows the dates of the others.
The person who was responsible for ROT 6 was also responsible later on for the return of ep 3 of the same story.
As for complete stories exisitng in private hands. Some of them are important historically. If a Beeb employee (or film collector) was a Marco Polo, French Revolution, or Richard the Lionheart, fan, he'd have sidled them away asap. So in such respect, some stories are wanted by fans of genres other than just Dr Who.
A lot of stories were available, some no-doubt, in duplicate. In such cases one could quite reasonably remove an entire story and for all extents and purposes, being a dupe, it is still there and more or less, no one is any the wiser.
Films could also be sold in lots, in such cases, a collector might not even know he has a missing ep as he might have seen what it was and just put it aside, or might possibly have forgotten he even has it at all if he is a serious collector with 1000's of 16mm reels.
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Post by shellyharman67 on Jan 8, 2014 15:18:58 GMT
Many people enjoy knowing that they own something which in all likelihood no one else has got, irrespective of how much it is worth. If a person can afford to collect 16mm films as a hobby, they might not need the money that a missing ep might bring them. Therefore its one of a kind satisfaction value is, for them, greater than its financial one. It seems to have taken an awful long time for some of those orphans to come onto the market. 2 of them in 1982, and who knows the dates of the others. The person who was responsible for ROT 6 was also responsible later on for the return of ep 3 of the same story. As for complete stories exisitng in private hands. Some of them are important historically. If a Beeb employee (or film collector) was a Marco Polo, French Revolution, or Richard the Lionheart, fan, he'd have sidled them away asap. So in such respect, some stories are wanted by fans of genres other than just Dr Who. A lot of stories were available, some no-doubt, in duplicate. In such cases one could quite reasonably remove an entire story and for all extents and purposes, being a dupe, it is still there and more or less, no one is any the wiser. Films could also be sold in lots, in such cases, a collector might not even know he has a missing ep as he might have seen what it was and just put it aside, or might possibly have forgotten he even has it at all if he is a serious collector with 1000's of 16mm reels. It happened of course it did. But how much ?Who knows mate ! |
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Post by John Wall on Jan 8, 2014 15:27:01 GMT
The best scenario for odd episodes ending up in private hands is that someone picked them off a pile in a skip or about to go in a skip. When they happened to be passing determined what they got. On Wednesday they picked up "Evil 2" for their brother, cousin, uncle, friend, etc who collected 16mm films and liked SF. Had they been passing on Tuesday or Thursday they might have got "Evil 4". It's as simple as that.
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Post by John Wall on Jan 8, 2014 15:33:43 GMT
Many people enjoy knowing that they own something which in all likelihood no one else has got, irrespective of how much it is worth. If a person can afford to collect 16mm films as a hobby, they might not need the money that a missing ep might bring them. Therefore its one of a kind satisfaction value is, for them, greater than its financial one. It seems to have taken an awful long time for some of those orphans to come onto the market. 2 of them in 1982, and who knows the dates of the others. The person who was responsible for ROT 6 was also responsible later on for the return of ep 3 of the same story. As for complete stories exisitng in private hands. Some of them are important historically. If a Beeb employee (or film collector) was a Marco Polo, French Revolution, or Richard the Lionheart, fan, he'd have sidled them away asap. So in such respect, some stories are wanted by fans of genres other than just Dr Who. A lot of stories were available, some no-doubt, in duplicate. In such cases one could quite reasonably remove an entire story and for all extents and purposes, being a dupe, it is still there and more or less, no one is any the wiser. Films could also be sold in lots, in such cases, a collector might not even know he has a missing ep as he might have seen what it was and just put it aside, or might possibly have forgotten he even has it at all if he is a serious collector with 1000's of 16mm reels. It happened of course it did. But how much ?Who knows mate ! Very little of that actually happened. People didn't walk off with complete stories - private recordings, such as those from Galton and Simpson and Bob Monkhouse, were extremely rare. About the best those involved in the production could get were telesnaps. It was very difficult to get copies of things out the BBC as I recall that IL tried to buy prints in the 70s. A few things were available to screen. I saw War Game and Culloden on 16mm at college in the very late 70s but that's about it. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 8, 2014 15:34:03 GMT
I have always thought that the best way to recover missing episodes were Private Collectors. Finding the private collectors however is another matter.
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Post by shellyharman67 on Jan 8, 2014 15:34:24 GMT
Bits and pieces will turn up. And for a book to say no more they have been wiped was silly to say the lest. The masters were mostly, but copies were not it would seem |
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The status of any episode can be checked online in about 30 seconds.