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Post by John Wall on Jan 8, 2014 15:35:08 GMT
I have always thought that the best way to recover missing episodes were Private Collectors. Finding the private collectors however is another matter. Yes and Yes  |
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Post by shellyharman67 on Jan 8, 2014 15:36:04 GMT
I have always thought that the best way to recover missing episodes were Private Collectors. Finding the private collectors however is another matter. loads of wonger would seem the only way. Unless someone has a lot of charm |
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Post by John Wall on Jan 8, 2014 15:36:24 GMT
Bits and pieces will turn up. And for a book to say no more they have been wiped was silly to say the lest. The masters were mostly, but copies were not it would seem Some of the copies seem to have been destroyed in the mistaken belief that the masters still existed. |
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Post by John Wall on Jan 8, 2014 15:37:31 GMT
I have always thought that the best way to recover missing episodes were Private Collectors. Finding the private collectors however is another matter. loads of wonger would seem the only way. Unless someone has a lot of charm The guy who had UM2 and Airlock had had them for decades and didn't know they were missing. |
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Post by johnforbes on Jan 8, 2014 16:37:23 GMT
It happened of course it did. But how much ?Who knows mate ! Very little of that actually happened. People didn't walk off with complete stories - private recordings, such as those from Galton and Simpson and Bob Monkhouse, were extremely rare. About the best those involved in the production could get were telesnaps. It was very difficult to get copies of things out the BBC as I recall that IL tried to buy prints in the 70s. A few things were available to screen. I saw War Game and Culloden on 16mm at college in the very late 70s but that's about it. Actual evidence shows that stories were destroyed complete if all the eps were there and available. Eg Ep 2 of Power didn't expire any sooner or later than any of the other parts. The whole story would therefore be available to either walk off BBC premises with it (could say you were taking it to the BFI or other premises), or more or less, all together in the skip (eg Power 2 is hardly likely to be at the bottom of the skip and Power 5 at the top, they'd roughly be in the same place as they would have been thrown in at the same time). In such case, you are more likely to have a complete story than you are an orphan. You know the stories were made in parts, so if you spot Power 2 in there for yourself, nephew or w/e, it wouldn't take too long to quickly scrabble around and find the other parts. I know if it were me, I wouldn't be satisfied with getting just the 1 ep, I'd want the whole story I'm a completionist  |
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Post by John Wall on Jan 8, 2014 16:46:40 GMT
Very little of that actually happened. People didn't walk off with complete stories - private recordings, such as those from Galton and Simpson and Bob Monkhouse, were extremely rare. About the best those involved in the production could get were telesnaps. It was very difficult to get copies of things out the BBC as I recall that IL tried to buy prints in the 70s. A few things were available to screen. I saw War Game and Culloden on 16mm at college in the very late 70s but that's about it. Actual evidence shows that stories were destroyed complete if all the eps were there and available. Eg Ep 2 of Power didn't expire any sooner or later than any of the other parts. The whole story would therefore be available to either walk off BBC premises with it (could say you were taking it to the BFI or other premises), or more or less, all together in the skip (eg Power 2 is hardly likely to be at the bottom of the skip and Power 5 at the top, they'd roughly be in the same place as they would have been thrown in at the same time). In such case, you are more likely to have a complete story than you are an orphan. You know the stories were made in parts, so if you spot Power 2 in there for yourself, nephew or w/e, it wouldn't take too long to quickly scrabble around and find the other parts. I know if it were me, I wouldn't be satisfied with getting just the 1 ep, I'd want the whole story I'm a completionist There is nothing to suggest people walking off with complete stories of anything. Forty years ago none of this was considered important. The actual evidence suggests that the physical destruction was done on an ad hoc basis. AFAIK we've only ever had a maximum of two episodes returned from a private collector which suggests that was what was "liberated" at the time. We don't know who actually took them but they may not have been a film collector or even a Dr Who fan - just someone with a magpie instinct who was in the right place at the right time. Based on the size and weight of 16mm reels in cans I doubt that many more than a couple could be carried away at one time. Remember, this was probably an opportunistic acquisition. |
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Post by Greg H on Jan 8, 2014 16:57:07 GMT
I hope not. The last thing we need is some enthusiastic, yet misguided, fans spearheading a sudden increase in shovel sales. ...  Who fans have a glowing enough reputation without adding grave robbing to the list |
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Post by scotttelfer on Jan 8, 2014 17:04:04 GMT
It is entirely possible people did walk away with whole stories, however pretty much every recovery from private collectors so far (certainly all the ones I'm aware of) has not been people who were working for the BBC who took them personally, it is a film collector who has bought them off of someone else. If someone did take a whole story it will have been scattered across numerous film collectors over the past 30-40 years.
Just have a look at Taiwan, that's a rather eclectic batch that they found, and there's another three in that guy's collection as well that we don't know of yet. It seems almost certain there were full stories at one point but they've been scattered across numerous collectors. It's just a matter of finding out why they are there, who's got them, do they still have them and finally what are they. It could very well just be three stories that have somehow found there way over there or there could very well be the entirety of Series 6 sitting around in a considerable number of different private collections.
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Post by John Wall on Jan 8, 2014 17:17:47 GMT
The only "orphan" episode from an ex BBC employee was the one from DMP.
I'd like to believe that people did walk away with complete stories but there is nothing in the recoveries from collectors to suggest that. They're just odd episodes that, presumably, happened to be around at the time.
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Post by John Wall on Jan 8, 2014 17:19:11 GMT
Additionally, the size/weight of even a four part story would probably prevent a passerby taking it all.
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Post by scotttelfer on Jan 8, 2014 17:29:47 GMT
Additionally, the size/weight of even a four part story would probably prevent a passerby taking it all.
Quite, if somebody was going to nab a full story it would need to be planned and if they were planning there's a good chance they wouldn't be looking for particular episodes. As was noted in DWM a while ago though, many of the Australian prints that have been found in private collections were all purchased from sellers in a particular part of the England (can't remember which, even then I'm not much use with geography) which would suggest somebody got a hold of a reasonable sized batch of these prints but then sold them on, but if these were sold on, nobody will have bought the full batch it will have broken down and gotten smaller and smaller and more widespread as time goes on.
The chances of there still being a full story sitting in a private collection is miniscule, if it does still exist you'll probably find the four episodes in four different collections.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 8, 2014 17:36:24 GMT
Additionally, the size/weight of even a four part story would probably prevent a passerby taking it all.
Quite, if somebody was going to nab a full story it would need to be planned and if they were planning there's a good chance they wouldn't be looking for particular episodes. As was noted in DWM a while ago though, many of the Australian prints that have been found in private collections were all purchased from sellers in a particular part of the England (can't remember which, even then I'm not much use with geography) which would suggest somebody got a hold of a reasonable sized batch of these prints but then sold them on, but if these were sold on, nobody will have bought the full batch it will have broken down and gotten smaller and smaller and more widespread as time goes on.
The chances of there still being a full story sitting in a private collection is miniscule, if it does still exist you'll probably find the four episodes in four different collections.
That certaintly scuppers my theory of someone going off with a box of film prints that they were supposed to destroy in the boot of their car. Still. We can dream eh? |
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Post by John Wall on Jan 8, 2014 17:43:33 GMT
Additionally, the size/weight of even a four part story would probably prevent a passerby taking it all.
Quite, if somebody was going to nab a full story it would need to be planned and if they were planning there's a good chance they wouldn't be looking for particular episodes. As was noted in DWM a while ago though, many of the Australian prints that have been found in private collections were all purchased from sellers in a particular part of the England (can't remember which, even then I'm not much use with geography) which would suggest somebody got a hold of a reasonable sized batch of these prints but then sold them on, but if these were sold on, nobody will have bought the full batch it will have broken down and gotten smaller and smaller and more widespread as time goes on.
The chances of there still being a full story sitting in a private collection is miniscule, if it does still exist you'll probably find the four episodes in four different collections.
It could have been a single magpie regularly walking past the location - presumably some sort of loading dock to take a skip - and taking a couple of prints each time. |
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Post by John Wall on Jan 8, 2014 17:46:45 GMT
Quite, if somebody was going to nab a full story it would need to be planned and if they were planning there's a good chance they wouldn't be looking for particular episodes. As was noted in DWM a while ago though, many of the Australian prints that have been found in private collections were all purchased from sellers in a particular part of the England (can't remember which, even then I'm not much use with geography) which would suggest somebody got a hold of a reasonable sized batch of these prints but then sold them on, but if these were sold on, nobody will have bought the full batch it will have broken down and gotten smaller and smaller and more widespread as time goes on.
The chances of there still being a full story sitting in a private collection is miniscule, if it does still exist you'll probably find the four episodes in four different collections.
That certaintly scuppers my theory of someone going off with a box of film prints that they were supposed to destroy in the boot of their car. Still. We can dream eh? Why would they want them back in the 70s ? You're projecting back our values and imposing them on people who thought differently. TV was considered unimportant and ephemeral then. I was watching TV in the 70s and, other than films, we rarely had repeats. I missed, because of a power cut, the first episode of "Genesis" and didn't actually see it for years. |
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Post by Crawford.P on Jan 8, 2014 17:50:24 GMT
Over the years, a surprisingly large number of missing/better quality episodes have been recovered from either private hands or public sale. Crusade 1 (NZ) Reign of Terror 3, 6 Reign of Terror 1 (original suppressed field, NOT a dupe) Abominable Snowmen 2 Space Museum 1 & Moonbase 4 (both better quality) Invasion of Dinosaurs 1 Time Meddler 1 & 3 Wheel in Space 3 Faceless Ones 3 Evil of the Daleks 2 Dominators 5 (source or how it was returned, unknown) It would surely seem too good to be true to think that this is it, and these are an accurate 100% record of everything that wound up in private hands after supposedly being destroyed/junked. Faceless Ones 3 & EOTD 2 were supposedly bought at a film fair as late as 1982. That's quite a number of years after junkings/destruction stopped. What about the intervening years when stuff is more likely to have been offered for sale ? Do you believe that more currently missing stuff is out there in private hands (and I don't mean PM's). I'd say it is too good to be true that absolutely everything that went walkies was sold to the type of people who later decided to hand it back in for nothing rather than keep it and try to make a few bucks out of the BBC's stupidity. You've missed a few out, namely: Planet of Giants episode 3 The Romans episode 3 The Chase episode 1 The War Machines episode 2 The Faceless ones episode 1 It is annoying that when only 4 Troughton Season 4 eps existed 2 of those episodes turned up again before any missing ones did. |
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