Australian collectors - last best hope for future finds?

[John Wall]

Sept 7, 2023 12:00:34 GMT @angelamezquita said:

So, are people saying that off-air or pirated copies of missing episodes may exist out there in the wild?

Once they had TV and then VCRs a few years later it’s probably reasonable to assume bootleg cassettes were making their way form the UK - but this would have been very late 70s at the earliest.

[John Wall]

Sept 7, 2023 14:36:34 GMT richardwoods said:

Sept 7, 2023 12:00:34 GMT @angelamezquita said:

So, are people saying that off-air or pirated copies of missing episodes may exist out there in the wild?

missingepisodes.proboards.com/thread/8910/early-television-south-africa

Rather than go through it all again here’s the original South Africa thread.
There’s no evidence from anyone unfortunately of any missing Who ending up in the pre tv film rental shops but my friend remembers watching UK TV on film both in independent cinemas and at home / friends houses, which does raise the question if any missing material was circulated this way.

What they saw on film would have been film series, possibly Avengers, Saint or other ITC series.

[George D]

Sept 6, 2023 21:26:13 GMT Richard Bignell said:

Sept 6, 2023 17:35:37 GMT John Wall said:

‘the print I saw at the school started with a" world around us" 5 minute short featuring speedboats and ice sculpture in Japan -including thunderbird 2 ) then doctor who started and I'm pretty sure it was ep 3 ..... funnily enough a couple of years ago Jon Preddle discovered that ep 3 of Macra screened with a "world around us " short before hand ....the only episode of Macra to do so in NZ.......’


I think this case can be closed.

Okay. You've picked up on a different account from the one I looked at.

So, from Jon's investigations, the TVNZ screen a film short before they broadcast the episode of The Macra Terror, also direct from film. It's hardly a leap of logic to suggest that they might have spliced the two together to go directly from one to the other on transmission.

So, it's not "case closed" at all. If anything, it adds weight to his account rather than disproving it.

The other possibility im wondering about is if the person had a video recorder and recorded both shows. That would explain the editing together and how a copy went awol.

The other question is did nz have a history of splicing films together?

[John Wall]

Sept 8, 2023 12:00:06 GMT George D said:

Sept 6, 2023 21:26:13 GMT Richard Bignell said:

Okay. You've picked up on a different account from the one I looked at.

So, from Jon's investigations, the TVNZ screen a film short before they broadcast the episode of The Macra Terror, also direct from film. It's hardly a leap of logic to suggest that they might have spliced the two together to go directly from one to the other on transmission.

So, it's not "case closed" at all. If anything, it adds weight to his account rather than disproving it.

The other possibility im wondering about is if the person had a video recorder and recorded both shows. That would explain the editing together and how a copy went awol.

The other question is did nz have a history of splicing films together?

In the era in question the only way to show something to a decent number of schoolchildren would have been 16mm. For a short/filler to have been seen it would have had to have been on the same reel meaning that after broadcast a reel containing two programmes was sent back to the store - the simplest explanation is that the memory of the original broadcast was subsequently confused with what was shown at the school, possibly a movie featuring giant crabs.

[Deleted]

So, basd off the comments of this thread,it seems possible that someone could have made off air copied of missing episodes and sold them to people, correct?

[John Wall]

Sept 8, 2023 12:46:23 GMT @angelamezquita said:

So, basd off the comments of this thread,it seems possible that someone could have made off air copied of missing episodes and sold them to people, correct?

Nope. Home video didn’t really come in early enough. Remember that SA didn’t get TV until 1976 and VCRs most probably arrived there several years later.

[Deleted]

Sept 8, 2023 13:02:33 GMT John Wall said:

Sept 8, 2023 12:46:23 GMT @angelamezquita said:

So, basd off the comments of this thread,it seems possible that someone could have made off air copied of missing episodes and sold them to people, correct?

Nope. Home video didn’t really come in early enough. Remember that SA didn’t get TV until 1976 and VCRs most probably arrived there several years later.

Imports and exports existed in the 70's. Also, you didn't need the Shibaden or Sony CV-2000 to record off your tv, a 8mm or 16mm camera pointed to the tv can also work.

[George D]

Aiming a camera to a tv would be a very expensive undertaking. An institution could possibly afford a video recorder and something was recorded to show the kids at a later time seems possible.
My vague memory is seeing a tv set up for a class when i was in school. While my memories were late 1970s, there was a man recording much in late 60s in uk. Im unsure if there a similar machine for nz at the time.

If they found there was a film collector in the school that gives a strong possibility.

If the school also owned a video recorder, that maybe another

[John Wall]

Sept 8, 2023 13:20:02 GMT @angelamezquita said:

Sept 8, 2023 13:02:33 GMT John Wall said:

Nope. Home video didn’t really come in early enough. Remember that SA didn’t get TV until 1976 and VCRs most probably arrived there several years later.

Imports and exports existed in the 70's. Also, you didn't need the Shibaden or Sony CV-2000 to record off your tv, a 8mm or 16mm camera pointed to the tv can also work.

And you get a poor picture, and what about the sound? The dates just don’t work. No one has found an off air recording of IotD1 - and that’s 1974.

[John Wall]

Sept 8, 2023 13:31:16 GMT George D said:

Aiming a camera to a tv would be a very expensive undertaking. An institution could possibly afford a video recorder and something was recorded to show the kids at a later time seems possible.
My vague memory is seeing a tv set up for a class when i was in school. While my memories were late 1970s, there was a man recording much in late 60s in uk. Im unsure if there a similar machine for nz at the time.

If they found there was a film collector in the school that gives a strong possibility.

If the school also owned a video recorder, that maybe another

Whatever was seen at that school in NZ was on 16mm.

[richardwoods]

Sept 8, 2023 13:02:33 GMT John Wall said:

Sept 8, 2023 12:46:23 GMT @angelamezquita said:

So, basd off the comments of this thread,it seems possible that someone could have made off air copied of missing episodes and sold them to people, correct?

Nope. Home video didn’t really come in early enough. Remember that SA didn’t get TV until 1976 and VCRs most probably arrived there several years later.

Well John is quite right in the sense that in SA that there is no proof of any missing material being copied to 16mm & rented out in pre TV days SA. However my friend in SA is adamant that he saw Fawlty Towers on film projector, it’s your call if you believe him or not.

Now this was the first season in 1975 which is right on the cusp of TV starting in SA but if true was clearly a bootleg copy.

There has also been speculation as to the amount of cooperation with archived TV between SA & Rhodesia. Don’t forget both countries were on the naughty step in the 60’s & 70’s and neither were adverse to breaking international rules.

Now Rhodesia had a lot of early UK TV on 16mm I believe both BBC & ITV. Feel free to join the dots, no hint of any proof at all but interesting speculation non the less & could be a good area for future investigation if it hasn’t already.

[Deleted]

Sept 8, 2023 13:56:20 GMT richardwoods said:

Sept 8, 2023 13:02:33 GMT John Wall said:

Nope. Home video didn’t really come in early enough. Remember that SA didn’t get TV until 1976 and VCRs most probably arrived there several years later.

Well John is quite right in the sense that in SA that there is no proof of any missing material being copied to 16mm & rented out in pre TV days SA. However my friend in SA is adamant that he saw Fawlty Towers on film projector, it’s your call if you believe him or not.

Now this was the first season in 1975 which is right on the cusp of TV starting in SA but if true was clearly a bootleg copy.

There has also been speculation as to the amount of cooperation with archived TV between SA & Rhodesia. Don’t forget both countries were on the naughty step in the 60’s & 70’s and neither were adverse to breaking international rules.

Now Rhodesia had a lot of early UK TV on 16mm I believe both BBC & ITV. Feel free to join the dots, no hint of any proof at all but interesting speculation non the less & could be a good area for future investigation if it hasn’t already.

Remember, Nigeria and Zambia got 16mm prints of Doctor Who. It's possible that someone could have imported a home recorder from the UK, recorded those episodes, make copies of them, and then smuggle them to South Africa and Zimbabwe. All that to make some money.

[John Wall]

Sept 8, 2023 13:56:20 GMT richardwoods said:

Sept 8, 2023 13:02:33 GMT John Wall said:

Nope. Home video didn’t really come in early enough. Remember that SA didn’t get TV until 1976 and VCRs most probably arrived there several years later.

Well John is quite right in the sense that in SA that there is no proof of any missing material being copied to 16mm & rented out in pre TV days SA. However my friend in SA is adamant that he saw Fawlty Towers on film projector, it’s your call if you believe him or not.

Now this was the first season in 1975 which is right on the cusp of TV starting in SA but if true was clearly a bootleg copy.

There has also been speculation as to the amount of cooperation with archived TV between SA & Rhodesia. Don’t forget both countries were on the naughty step in the 60’s & 70’s and neither were adverse to breaking international rules.

Now Rhodesia had a lot of early UK TV on 16mm I believe both BBC & ITV. Feel free to join the dots, no hint of any proof at all but interesting speculation non the less & could be a good area for future investigation if it hasn’t already.

Fawlty Towers was a VT show, multicamera studio with filmed inserts mastered onto 2” VT. So, how do you get that onto 16mm?

The 2” VT has to be taken out of the store and put onto a telerecording machine to transfer it to 16mm. All of that needs paperwork with cost codes/job numbers and a skilled operator for the machine.

SA was isolated for a long time because of apartheid so I’m unsure when they were able to buy BBC shows. However, home video would have probably followed TV by a few years and, as I’ve said before, bootleg cassettes would have easily made it from the UK. There were flights to/from the UK and people in each country with family in the other.

Consequently we can say, not on the balance of probabilities but beyond reasonable doubt that someone didn’t see Fawlty Towers on 16mm in SA, however it’s extremely likely that they saw it on a bootleg cassette.

[John Wall]

Sept 8, 2023 14:03:49 GMT @angelamezquita said:

Sept 8, 2023 13:56:20 GMT richardwoods said:

Well John is quite right in the sense that in SA that there is no proof of any missing material being copied to 16mm & rented out in pre TV days SA. However my friend in SA is adamant that he saw Fawlty Towers on film projector, it’s your call if you believe him or not.

Now this was the first season in 1975 which is right on the cusp of TV starting in SA but if true was clearly a bootleg copy.

There has also been speculation as to the amount of cooperation with archived TV between SA & Rhodesia. Don’t forget both countries were on the naughty step in the 60’s & 70’s and neither were adverse to breaking international rules.

Now Rhodesia had a lot of early UK TV on 16mm I believe both BBC & ITV. Feel free to join the dots, no hint of any proof at all but interesting speculation non the less & could be a good area for future investigation if it hasn’t already.

Remember, Nigeria and Zambia got 16mm prints of Doctor Who. It's possible that someone could have imported a home recorder from the UK, recorded those episodes, make copies of them, and then smuggle them to South Africa and Zimbabwe. All that to make some money.

Er, SA didn’t have TV until 1976 and home video would have followed a few years later.

[richardwoods]

Sept 8, 2023 15:14:53 GMT John Wall said:

Sept 8, 2023 13:56:20 GMT richardwoods said:

Well John is quite right in the sense that in SA that there is no proof of any missing material being copied to 16mm & rented out in pre TV days SA. However my friend in SA is adamant that he saw Fawlty Towers on film projector, it’s your call if you believe him or not.

Now this was the first season in 1975 which is right on the cusp of TV starting in SA but if true was clearly a bootleg copy.

There has also been speculation as to the amount of cooperation with archived TV between SA & Rhodesia. Don’t forget both countries were on the naughty step in the 60’s & 70’s and neither were adverse to breaking international rules.

Now Rhodesia had a lot of early UK TV on 16mm I believe both BBC & ITV. Feel free to join the dots, no hint of any proof at all but interesting speculation non the less & could be a good area for future investigation if it hasn’t already.

Fawlty Towers was a VT show, multicamera studio with filmed inserts mastered onto 2” VT. So, how do you get that onto 16mm?

The 2” VT has to be taken out of the store and put onto a telerecording machine to transfer it to 16mm. All of that needs paperwork with cost codes/job numbers and a skilled operator for the machine.

SA was isolated for a long time because of apartheid so I’m unsure when they were able to buy BBC shows. However, home video would have probably followed TV by a few years and, as I’ve said before, bootleg cassettes would have easily made it from the UK. There were flights to/from the UK and people in each country with family in the other.

Consequently we can say, not on the balance of probabilities but beyond reasonable doubt that someone didn’t see Fawlty Towers on 16mm in SA, however it’s extremely likely that they saw it on a bootleg cassette.

I wouldn’t disagree with John’s analysis here to be honest, but Hendry is adamant in his belief that it was seen on film so you pay your money & take your choice.