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Post by John Wall on Sept 7, 2023 7:09:13 GMT
I’m an Engineer, I look at things and think logically. wrt SA titles were quoted which, thanks to Google, etc could be checked - and just didn’t add up. With programmes made on VT someone would have had to have made illicit telerecordings, etc for which they would have wanted a quantity of used, non-consecutively numbered fivers in a brown paper envelope. But the money would have been subsequently made down the line in SA. With film series the Americans were turning out prints like shelling peas - one of the few things we know about PM is that he found piles of prints of US film series! it’s worth noting just how unreliable memory can be. When an identity parade is held it’s often the villainous looking copper there to make up the numbers who’s picked out. Michael Parkinson recently passed away. I used to watch him in the 70s and 80s, immediately after Match of the Day. But there have been a lot of repeats/compilations so which guests did I see at the time and which later? I didn’t keep any sort of record so have no idea. Consider the cinema, which films did I first see there or on TV? Nowadays as the cinema is close, I can get a ticket for £4.99, and have the time I’ll go and see films that interest me - but it was different in the past. Unless someone has a contemporary record/diary the best option is to treat any memory with the utmost scepticism. Over the years I’ve been a sceptic here and I’d suggest that my record is good. The Omnirumour is now about a decade ago but, despite the hordes desperate to believe it, I challenged it on the basis of its logical inconsistencies - it’s delivered zero MEs. I’m quite happy to accept that Neil, et al saw something at school all those years ago, but how many kept a diary/journal at the time? “Dear Diary, today everything was rained off but we saw a DW story called The Macra Terror which I’d previously seen on TV”. I’d suggest it was zero. There are also problems with the dates. iirc a few weeks after this, alleged, showing MT was, iirc, sent back to the UK meaning that someone had to have “borrowed” it and then returned it in time for it to have been sent back to London. There’s another pile of unlikely circumstances in that! We shouldn’t “trust” what people say unless they can back it up with contemporary documentation. Of course you make a valid point here, and being a now retired engineer myself I have sympathy with where you a coming from, I completely get that you can’t wish something into existence. Unfortunately without that leap of faith it sometimes takes if you like we wouldn’t have Phil Morris’ returns for example so I think it pays to keep an open mind. All PM did was to apply the old adage “trust but verify”. He went to somewhere, Nigeria, where DW MEs were known to have ended up and physically checked whether they’d been destroyed. |
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Post by richardwoods on Sept 7, 2023 7:11:34 GMT
Of course you make a valid point here, and being a now retired engineer myself I have sympathy with where you a coming from, I completely get that you can’t wish something into existence. Unfortunately without that leap of faith it sometimes takes if you like we wouldn’t have Phil Morris’ returns for example so I think it pays to keep an open mind. All PM did was to apply the old adage “trust but verify”. He went to somewhere, Nigeria, where DW MEs were known to have ended up and physically checked whether they’d been destroyed. Agreed, but he wouldn’t have necessarily gone and verified if he applied a blanket “don’t trust” with his initial information. I think that we are pretty much on the same page really John it’s just about a few degrees of separation in our approach to reports & info. |
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Post by John Wall on Sept 7, 2023 7:42:38 GMT
All PM did was to apply the old adage “trust but verify”. He went to somewhere, Nigeria, where DW MEs were known to have ended up and physically checked whether they’d been destroyed. Agreed, but he wouldn’t have necessarily gone and verified if he applied a blanket “don’t trust” with his initial information. I think that we are pretty much on the same page really John it’s just about a few degrees of separation in our approach to reports & info. Some assured him that there was nothing to be found in Nigeria. |
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Post by John Wall on Sept 7, 2023 7:50:09 GMT
Argue that with Jon Preddle, I think you’ll find that MoP had been shown at the time. You are probably right but I always try to be positive with these sort of reports when there is at least a small amount of logic supporting them🤞 DW MEs aren’t found through belief. After years of following up rumours, etc I think it’s fair to say that not a single illicit broadcast has been substantiated. The reason is probably that Auntie paid actors, etc royalties whereas those involved in film series got a higher up front payment. Consequently if DW, or anything from the BBC, was broadcast in a country that hadn’t paid for it the actors union would be hammering on Auntie’s door and they’d then be chasing the broadcaster. That seems to have instilled discipline that made broadcasters look after prints. |
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Post by anthonybartley on Sept 7, 2023 9:47:58 GMT
You are probably right but I always try to be positive with these sort of reports when there is at least a small amount of logic supporting them🤞 DW MEs aren’t found through belief. After years of following up rumours, etc I think it’s fair to say that not a single illicit broadcast has been substantiated. The reason is probably that Auntie paid actors, etc royalties whereas those involved in film series got a higher up front payment. Consequently if DW, or anything from the BBC, was broadcast in a country that hadn’t paid for it the actors union would be hammering on Auntie’s door and they’d then be chasing the broadcaster. That seems to have instilled discipline that made broadcasters look after prints. I don't think it's about rights and royalties. Even countries like Spain and Italy didn't give a damn about copyright (at all) until the very late 1980s. If someone in SA wanted to make illegal copies, that wouldn't have stopped them. And the idea of the BBC 'chasing up royalties' somewhere in SA seems crazy. All that effort for what? But what would have stopped them was the huge bank of machinery involved in making a "copy" of something back then. VT would have cost a fortune and been way out of any pirate's budget. Likewise, film? You would need a lab and processing costs - again, way, way, out of reach of the committed pirate. VHS? Of course that was possible but it came much later - and we're not talking about VHS. Copying anything back then would involve very, very, expensive machinery and the costs compared to the perceived returns/profit - it just doesn't make any sense. |
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Post by anthonybartley on Sept 7, 2023 9:53:38 GMT
Double post - sorry! please delete! |
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Post by richardwoods on Sept 7, 2023 10:04:54 GMT
DW MEs aren’t found through belief. After years of following up rumours, etc I think it’s fair to say that not a single illicit broadcast has been substantiated. The reason is probably that Auntie paid actors, etc royalties whereas those involved in film series got a higher up front payment. Consequently if DW, or anything from the BBC, was broadcast in a country that hadn’t paid for it the actors union would be hammering on Auntie’s door and they’d then be chasing the broadcaster. That seems to have instilled discipline that made broadcasters look after prints. I don't think it's about rights and royalties. Even countries like Spain and Italy didn't give a damn about copyright (at all) until the very late 1980s. If someone in SA wanted to make illegal copies, that wouldn't have stopped them. And the idea of the BBC 'chasing up royalties' somewhere in SA seems crazy. All that effort for what? But what would have stopped them was the huge bank of machinery involved in making a "copy" of something back then. VT would have cost a fortune and been way out of any pirate's budget. Likewise, film? You would need a lab and processing costs - again, way, way, out of reach of the committed pirate. VHS? Of course that was possible but it came much later - and we're not talking about VHS. Copying anything back then would involve very, very, expensive machinery and the costs compared to the perceived returns/profit - it just doesn't make any sense. Nevertheless the pre TV film rental shops in SA are well known to have existed, this is not in any doubt. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 7, 2023 12:00:34 GMT
So, are people saying that off-air or pirated copies of missing episodes may exist out there in the wild?
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Post by richardwoods on Sept 7, 2023 14:36:34 GMT
So, are people saying that off-air or pirated copies of missing episodes may exist out there in the wild? Rather than go through it all again here’s the original South Africa thread. There’s no evidence from anyone unfortunately of any missing Who ending up in the pre tv film rental shops but my friend remembers watching UK TV on film both in independent cinemas and at home / friends houses, which does raise the question if any missing material was circulated this way. |
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Post by michaelnorris on Sept 7, 2023 16:12:14 GMT
So, are people saying that off-air or pirated copies of missing episodes may exist out there in the wild? It's certainly possible but unless/until such a version of an epsiode is found there's no way to prove it. Now if say an episode of Power of the Daleks showed up as a grainy VHS that would raise a lot of questions. But again such a thing would have to actually be discovered to verify any speculation. |
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Post by anthonybartley on Sept 7, 2023 22:12:41 GMT
I did some reading (what little there is) online about the video and TV scene in South Africa during apartheid. My overriding feeling is that there really can't have been very much floating around. TVs were banned until 1976 and the ruling government seemed one step removed from the Nazi party. I could see people being jailed or worse for simply having anything that wasn't state approved. It certainly doesn't sound anything like a wild west of piracy, or even close.
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Post by Nicholas Fitzpatrick on Sept 7, 2023 22:27:04 GMT
I did some reading (what little there is) online about the video and TV scene in South Africa during apartheid. My overriding feeling is that there really can't have been very much floating around. TVs were banned until 1976 and the ruling government seemed one step removed from the Nazi party. I could see people being jailed or worse for simply having anything that wasn't state approved. It certainly doesn't sound anything like a wild west of piracy, or even close. Film projectors. |
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Post by richardwoods on Sept 8, 2023 6:24:10 GMT
I did some reading (what little there is) online about the video and TV scene in South Africa during apartheid. My overriding feeling is that there really can't have been very much floating around. TVs were banned until 1976 and the ruling government seemed one step removed from the Nazi party. I could see people being jailed or worse for simply having anything that wasn't state approved. It certainly doesn't sound anything like a wild west of piracy, or even close. Actually a “Wild West of Piracy” is exactly how it has been described to me by multiple sources. The film shops got hold of UK tv amongst other stuff on film & hired it out to punters with film projectors. It was frowned upon by the government but as is often the case the white elite were watching the films in their homes & the cinema and as folks should realise rules are not for elites but everyone else, particularly in minority ruled countries like SA was & dictatorships. |
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Post by richardwoods on Sept 8, 2023 6:32:14 GMT
Most rich elite households had film projectors and consequently there was a high level of demand for material. Trying to research this today is difficult as there is an understandable reluctance in modern SA to look back at this period. I was in discussion with a guy over there who was involved in the history of cinema in SA but he got quite agitated when pressed on the possibility of films surviving from the apartheid era rentals to the extent that he denied any film societies existed in modern SA. I have family over there but with the death of my parents some years ago we have lost touch with them completely. If I could find some way of making contact that might be a way forward but I’m not holding my breath.
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Post by John Wall on Sept 8, 2023 7:49:06 GMT
DW MEs aren’t found through belief. After years of following up rumours, etc I think it’s fair to say that not a single illicit broadcast has been substantiated. The reason is probably that Auntie paid actors, etc royalties whereas those involved in film series got a higher up front payment. Consequently if DW, or anything from the BBC, was broadcast in a country that hadn’t paid for it the actors union would be hammering on Auntie’s door and they’d then be chasing the broadcaster. That seems to have instilled discipline that made broadcasters look after prints. I don't think it's about rights and royalties. Even countries like Spain and Italy didn't give a damn about copyright (at all) until the very late 1980s. If someone in SA wanted to make illegal copies, that wouldn't have stopped them. And the idea of the BBC 'chasing up royalties' somewhere in SA seems crazy. All that effort for what? But what would have stopped them was the huge bank of machinery involved in making a "copy" of something back then. VT would have cost a fortune and been way out of any pirate's budget. Likewise, film? You would need a lab and processing costs - again, way, way, out of reach of the committed pirate. VHS? Of course that was possible but it came much later - and we're not talking about VHS. Copying anything back then would involve very, very, expensive machinery and the costs compared to the perceived returns/profit - it just doesn't make any sense. It’s worth remembering just how prevalent film once was. Before TV in SA there seems to have been a thriving 16mm community , possibly large enough for someone to set up a duplicating facility. |
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