|
|
Post by brandonm on Aug 18, 2023 13:08:34 GMT
Australia had the most Doctor Who film prints circulating of any country, having purchased almost every B&W story and even possessing duplicates of some episodes. Some of these made their way back to the UK (the 1975 returns), and of course, many were put through a bandsaw - but with so many prints around, you would think the odds of something falling through the cracks would be quite high. The recent research into The Macra Terror in NZ suggests that it wasn't just British collectors making off with Doctor Who episodes - Kiwis did it too. Who's to say Australian collectors didn't get in on the action as well? Yet to my knowledge the only episodes found in Australia have been Toymaker 4, The Chase 1, and The Faceless Ones 1, and none of these came from collectors (?). To what extent have collectors' circles in Australia been explored?
|
|
|
|
Post by timothyk on Aug 18, 2023 13:59:25 GMT
BroaDWcast says The Chase 1, Faceless Ones 1 & also War Machines 2 were returned by a collector (the same collector?)
A lot of the Australian prints were returned to the BBC in 1975, so there wouldn't have been many to escape into the collector's circuit in the first place. Though a lot of those 1975 returns likely ended up with British collectors! (Galaxy 4 3 & Underwater Menace 2 are definitely ex-Australian prints)
I suppose it's possible the odd missing episode might still exist in Australia, though equally possible there's nothing at all!
|
|
|
|
Post by John Wall on Aug 18, 2023 14:30:09 GMT
The ABC prints seem to have been either returned to Auntie or destroyed locally. Those returned over the years would have either been sent to another broadcaster or destroyed, and we know that some of the latter were “liberated” in London.
If you’re returning prints, and you don’t know what’s going to happen to them, you probably take care to make sure that you’re packing exactly what’s required as it’s reasonable to assume that someone at the other end will check them.
Prints being destroyed are another matter, it’s much easier to contemplate a few going walkies.
fwiw I don’t think Macra Terror was shown at a school in NZ. It was probably something else and memories were later confused.
|
|
|
|
Post by brandonm on Aug 18, 2023 14:49:18 GMT
fwiw I don’t think Macra Terror was shown at a school in NZ. It was probably something else and memories were later confused. I was also skeptical about this (particularly when someone showed a B-movie about crab monsters that it could've been instead) but the latest research seems pretty conclusive. This quote from Neil Lambess won't be news to you but it's worth repeating here as it was posted outside the DW section and is the most recent commentary on the Macra situation from anyone involved in it. Shades here of our friend in New Zealand being told that he couldn’t possibly have been seen The Macra Terror. He said that he was there and he said he saw it. That’s good enough for me. The same applies here. Would rather believe eye witnesses than folks trying to apply the benefit of hindsight who weren’t in the country at the time. If you don’t respect that, why would folks want to share their memories & recollections on the forum? I’ve got a bridge to sell you….. Memory is a very dodgy thing, things like identity parades are notoriously unreliable, there are plenty of stories of “villains” being picked out who were actually policemen put in the line to make up the numbers. I read everything about the alleged viewing of Macra Terror in New Zealand and it was an impressive piece of research. However, the likelihood of “borrowing” prints is extremely small - possibly the best explanation is that it was a reasonably recent horror film that featured giant crabs that someone later confused with the Macra Terror. It’s a bit like the alleged broadcast of the Savages which was probably Monster of Peladon. Sorry John ...I DEFINATLY saw Macra (I was even dissapointed that it was one I had already seen ) When David Creighton did his excellent research (along with Jon )they did discover some stuff that hasn't been shared publicly ...To the extent that we know the collectors name,( provided by other witnesses who mentioned his Doctor Who prints) his criminal convictions, and that the trail went cold in Wanganui after his death. In the 90s I contacted a friend of a friend who used to work at NZBC /TVNZ who in the 1970s would occasionally borrow stuff from work and bring it up to my friends place and screen it at his house. (I was there) When I contacted him in the 90s he told me how the stuff went walkies and how some of it was "written off" simply by writing destroyed in the relevant programme logs . All highly illegal but money was made by a few employees of the channel.(including the person telling me this!!!) He knew of a collector in Masterson who liked science fiction shows including Who , Ootu, And the usual American SF shows ( but specifically didn't want historical episodes of Who ).....this last bit is particularly interesting as he probably at one time owned the 16mm film print of "the Lion" and abandoned it ..(ironically I eventually tracked that one down in Auckland in 1999...after been told there couldn't possibly be a print of it in NZ as it hadn't screened here !).... I can't prove conclusively that he owned it but as the Lion was kept in storage in a farm shed in Masterton alongside many other film prints (the shed containing some of their owners collection ) and as Masterton was where I saw Macra and where both I and it's probable owner lived there's a interesting probability they could have been owned by the same person Adding to my speculation the person storing the films in the shed was only a friend of the actual films owner and after the prints were abandoned ( ... around the same time the school teacher was in jail ) he decided to sell them /give them away to a local film collector Larry Duggan .who eventually on sold the Lion in 1998 . Sadly we all missed the boat here in NZ as Larry Duggan was concerned and his collection was on sold and some of it dumped after his death ....so we don't know what else was in the Masterton shed or what the collector took to Wanganui. Anyway ...I do get a little bit disheartened (no offense) when people suggest I saw something like "attack of the crab monsters " instead of what I know I saw !... and if you still think I'm mistaken the print I saw at the school started with a" world around us" 5 minute short featuring speedboats and ice sculpture in Japan -including thunderbird 2 ) then doctor who started and I'm pretty sure it was ep 3 ..... funnily enough a couple of years ago Jon Preddle discovered that ep 3 of Macra screened with a "world around us " short before hand ....the only episode of Macra to do so in NZ....... Nevermind I'm still looking for it ...I won't be surprised if the film print just has "world around us " written on it ...IF ...and it's a big if . It's managed to survive They have the name of the guy, third-party evidence of him having Doctor Who prints, and Preddle independently verified Lambess's recollection of a 5-minute documentary being shown before episode 3. At this point it seems more likely than not and suggests that NZ collectors' interest in Doctor Who extended beyond the chance rescue of The Lion. Unfortunately though it sounds as if these prints didn't survive into the present day  |
|
|
|
Post by brandonm on Aug 18, 2023 15:02:24 GMT
It's striking to me that a small country like NZ with a population of under 3 million had:
a) Such a thriving market for 16mm film to make this kind of theft profitable
b) Such a lack of oversight at NZBC to make it possible
In Australia, with a larger population (therefore more film collectors) and more opportunities for things to go walkies, you would expect this to happen even more.
Of course I am no expert on Australian or New Zealand public broadcasters and it may be that the workplace cultures of NZBC and ABC were very different.
|
|
|
|
Post by John Wall on Aug 18, 2023 15:13:11 GMT
Why would a short of speedboats and ice sculpture be on the same print as a DW episode? It may have been broadcast on TV immediately before the DW episode but the print was, effectively, loaned from Auntie who’d subsequently want it returned, destroyed or bicycled on. If anybody thinks that helps the credibility of the report I’ve still got a bridge to sell you! It does, however, reinforce the explanation that a memory of the actual broadcast was confused with a showing of something else.
I also remember that Macra was either destroyed or returned to London a couple of weeks after it was allegedly shown at this school. If it had been “borrowed” it’s very unlikely that the borrower would have known to return it.
|
|
|
|
Post by John Wall on Aug 18, 2023 15:24:50 GMT
It's striking to me that a small country like NZ with a population of under 3 million had: a) Such a thriving market for 16mm film to make this kind of theft profitable b) Such a lack of oversight at NZBC to make it possible In Australia, with a larger population (therefore more film collectors) and more opportunities for things to go walkies, you would expect this to happen even more. Of course I am no expert on Australian or New Zealand public broadcasters and it may be that the workplace cultures of NZBC and ABC were very different. The only reason to “liberate” a print is because it was desirable; the magpie wanted it, they knew someone such as a friend or relative who’d want it, or they thought they could sell it. It’s all predicated on there being a 16mm collecting hobby and NZ, being part of the Anglosphere, may well have had such a thing. I’ve previously asked, without any information received, whether places like Singapore or Hong Kong had collectors as that’s about the only reason for prints to go walkies there. What is worth noting is that despite DW, and other shows, being shown all around the world the prints seem to have been pretty well looked after. I suspect this was because if they were slack Auntie wouldn’t be happy and they might not get any more. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 18, 2023 18:02:09 GMT
Some of the recovered episodes comes from employees of the BBC, ABC, or NZBC where they were assigned to junk or destroy episodes but took them home instead for many reasons.
Some for nostalgia reasons, some because they couldn't bear destroying a piece of history, and some for collectors reasons.
When they get old or die, the prints get sold and will keep getting passed around until they get returned to the BBC.
|
|
|
|
Post by Ralph Rose on Aug 19, 2023 4:27:26 GMT
Some of the recovered episodes comes from employees of the BBC, ABC, or NZBC where they were assigned to junk or destroy episodes but took them home instead for many reasons. Some for nostalgia reasons, some because they couldn't bear destroying a piece of history, and some for collectors reasons. When they get old or die, the prints get sold and will keep getting passed around until they get returned to the BBC. Or thrown in the garbage bin... Something to guard against. |
|
|
|
Post by John Wall on Aug 19, 2023 9:29:27 GMT
Some of the recovered episodes comes from employees of the BBC, ABC, or NZBC where they were assigned to junk or destroy episodes but took them home instead for many reasons. Some for nostalgia reasons, some because they couldn't bear destroying a piece of history, and some for collectors reasons. When they get old or die, the prints get sold and will keep getting passed around until they get returned to the BBC. Or thrown in the garbage bin... Something to guard against. It’s happened. |
|
|
|
Post by richardwoods on Sept 6, 2023 10:26:52 GMT
fwiw I don’t think Macra Terror was shown at a school in NZ. It was probably something else and memories were later confused. I was also skeptical about this (particularly when someone showed a B-movie about crab monsters that it could've been instead) but the latest research seems pretty conclusive. This quote from Neil Lambess won't be news to you but it's worth repeating here as it was posted outside the DW section and is the most recent commentary on the Macra situation from anyone involved in it. Sorry John ...I DEFINATLY saw Macra (I was even dissapointed that it was one I had already seen ) When David Creighton did his excellent research (along with Jon )they did discover some stuff that hasn't been shared publicly ...To the extent that we know the collectors name,( provided by other witnesses who mentioned his Doctor Who prints) his criminal convictions, and that the trail went cold in Wanganui after his death. In the 90s I contacted a friend of a friend who used to work at NZBC /TVNZ who in the 1970s would occasionally borrow stuff from work and bring it up to my friends place and screen it at his house. (I was there) When I contacted him in the 90s he told me how the stuff went walkies and how some of it was "written off" simply by writing destroyed in the relevant programme logs . All highly illegal but money was made by a few employees of the channel.(including the person telling me this!!!) He knew of a collector in Masterson who liked science fiction shows including Who , Ootu, And the usual American SF shows ( but specifically didn't want historical episodes of Who ).....this last bit is particularly interesting as he probably at one time owned the 16mm film print of "the Lion" and abandoned it ..(ironically I eventually tracked that one down in Auckland in 1999...after been told there couldn't possibly be a print of it in NZ as it hadn't screened here !).... I can't prove conclusively that he owned it but as the Lion was kept in storage in a farm shed in Masterton alongside many other film prints (the shed containing some of their owners collection ) and as Masterton was where I saw Macra and where both I and it's probable owner lived there's a interesting probability they could have been owned by the same person Adding to my speculation the person storing the films in the shed was only a friend of the actual films owner and after the prints were abandoned ( ... around the same time the school teacher was in jail ) he decided to sell them /give them away to a local film collector Larry Duggan .who eventually on sold the Lion in 1998 . Sadly we all missed the boat here in NZ as Larry Duggan was concerned and his collection was on sold and some of it dumped after his death ....so we don't know what else was in the Masterton shed or what the collector took to Wanganui. Anyway ...I do get a little bit disheartened (no offense) when people suggest I saw something like "attack of the crab monsters " instead of what I know I saw !... and if you still think I'm mistaken the print I saw at the school started with a" world around us" 5 minute short featuring speedboats and ice sculpture in Japan -including thunderbird 2 ) then doctor who started and I'm pretty sure it was ep 3 ..... funnily enough a couple of years ago Jon Preddle discovered that ep 3 of Macra screened with a "world around us " short before hand ....the only episode of Macra to do so in NZ....... Nevermind I'm still looking for it ...I won't be surprised if the film print just has "world around us " written on it ...IF ...and it's a big if . It's managed to survive They have the name of the guy, third-party evidence of him having Doctor Who prints, and Preddle independently verified Lambess's recollection of a 5-minute documentary being shown before episode 3. At this point it seems more likely than not and suggests that NZ collectors' interest in Doctor Who extended beyond the chance rescue of The Lion. Unfortunately though it sounds as if these prints didn't survive into the present day For what it’s worth Neil, I wholeheartedly believe you. This sort of thing happened, as I mentioned before my primary school in Carlisle specially opened up as the summer holidays had started & showed a reel to reel recording of the BBC Moon Landing the morning after so to speak & I attended despite being got up by my father at 3am to watch in real time. I advised Paul when I joined the forum as it is a lead however tenuous on the missing BBC Apollo 11 footage, so this sort of thing did happen. Slightly different circumstances but still…… |
|
|
|
Post by John Wall on Sept 6, 2023 10:48:39 GMT
I was also skeptical about this (particularly when someone showed a B-movie about crab monsters that it could've been instead) but the latest research seems pretty conclusive. This quote from Neil Lambess won't be news to you but it's worth repeating here as it was posted outside the DW section and is the most recent commentary on the Macra situation from anyone involved in it.They have the name of the guy, third-party evidence of him having Doctor Who prints, and Preddle independently verified Lambess's recollection of a 5-minute documentary being shown before episode 3. At this point it seems more likely than not and suggests that NZ collectors' interest in Doctor Who extended beyond the chance rescue of The Lion. Unfortunately though it sounds as if these prints didn't survive into the present day For what it’s worth Neil, I wholeheartedly believe you. This sort of thing happened, as I mentioned before my primary school in Carlisle specially opened up as the summer holidays had started & showed a reel to reel recording of the BBC Moon Landing the morning after so to speak & I attended despite being got up by my father at 3am to watch in real time. I advised Paul when I joined the forum as it is a lead however tenuous on the missing BBC Apollo 11 footage, so this sort of thing did happen. Slightly different circumstances but still…… We know that some early video recorders were around in the late 60s - the moon landing was July 1969 - but that can’t be taken as evidence that 16mm DW prints moonlighted from TV stations. The alleged showing of the Macra Terror can now probably be eliminated. There’s no way a short documentary that had preceded a TV broadcast of an episode could have possibly be shown at a school. Consequently it’s clear that there are jumbled memories. |
|
|
|
Post by richardwoods on Sept 6, 2023 12:59:29 GMT
For what it’s worth Neil, I wholeheartedly believe you. This sort of thing happened, as I mentioned before my primary school in Carlisle specially opened up as the summer holidays had started & showed a reel to reel recording of the BBC Moon Landing the morning after so to speak & I attended despite being got up by my father at 3am to watch in real time. I advised Paul when I joined the forum as it is a lead however tenuous on the missing BBC Apollo 11 footage, so this sort of thing did happen. Slightly different circumstances but still…… We know that some early video recorders were around in the late 60s - the moon landing was July 1969 - but that can’t be taken as evidence that 16mm DW prints moonlighted from TV stations. The alleged showing of the Macra Terror can now probably be eliminated. There’s no way a short documentary that had preceded a TV broadcast of an episode could have possibly be shown at a school. Consequently it’s clear that there are jumbled memories. I take your point, I was just suggesting that sometimes the unexpected can happen from the point of view of someone who has been disbelieved (not on here I hasten to add), over the school moon landing video showing. Perhaps a better example would have been that in 72/3 I used to be in a youth club in rural NE Lincs and they used to have Cinema nights. One of the organisers used to get hold of old b/w British films (1930’s & 40’s vintage), from somewhere and show them. No idea if anything missing was shown but again it did happen. I’m sure Neil finds it as uncomfortable to be disbelieved as I did. I get that the memory cheats but in my experience it’s more over detail than the bulk of the memory itself. |
|
|
|
Post by Richard Bignell on Sept 6, 2023 13:07:57 GMT
There’s no way a short documentary that had preceded a TV broadcast of an episode could have possibly be shown at a school. Consequently it’s clear that there are jumbled memories. Splicing two separate films together onto a single reel isn't exactly taxing work, you know. |
|
|
|
Post by John Wall on Sept 6, 2023 15:00:42 GMT
There’s no way a short documentary that had preceded a TV broadcast of an episode could have possibly be shown at a school. Consequently it’s clear that there are jumbled memories. Splicing two separate films together onto a single reel isn't exactly taxing work, you know. So we’re expected to believe that not only a DW ME went walkies but also the same short filler that TVNZ had broadcast before it? |
|
