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Post by Richard Bignell on Sept 6, 2023 16:12:06 GMT
Splicing two separate films together onto a single reel isn't exactly taxing work, you know. So we’re expected to believe that not only a DW ME went walkies but also the same short filler that TVNZ had broadcast before it? Who said anything about the short film with speedboat racing and ice sculptures the proceeded it being something that TVNZ had broadcast before the episode? Certainly not Neil. To be fair, he doesn't even say that they were on the same reel. Just that one followed the other. |
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Post by John Wall on Sept 6, 2023 17:35:37 GMT
So we’re expected to believe that not only a DW ME went walkies but also the same short filler that TVNZ had broadcast before it? Who said anything about the short film with speedboat racing and ice sculptures the proceeded it being something that TVNZ had broadcast before the episode? Certainly not Neil. To be fair, he doesn't even say that they were on the same reel. Just that one followed the other. ‘the print I saw at the school started with a" world around us" 5 minute short featuring speedboats and ice sculpture in Japan -including thunderbird 2 ) then doctor who started and I'm pretty sure it was ep 3 ..... funnily enough a couple of years ago Jon Preddle discovered that ep 3 of Macra screened with a "world around us " short before hand ....the only episode of Macra to do so in NZ.......’ I think this case can be closed. Neil has confused his viewing of MT when originally broadcast with what he saw some time later at school. It’s similar to the bootleg TV programmes allegedly seen on 16mm in SA before TV started. When the titles were checked it was clear that either they were made on VT or the dates just didn’t work. These shows had either been seen on broadcast TV in SA or on bootleg video cassettes. |
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Post by richardwoods on Sept 6, 2023 19:25:03 GMT
Well, I’ll nibble on the bait John, I’m sure that you would be disappointed if I didn’t 😉.
The guy who told me about the bootleg films of UK TV programs being rented out for home use & also shown in independent cinemas prior to tv arriving in SA was a South African who lived through it all.
There may have been errors in his list of programs he gave as off the cuff examples, (the memory cheats on detail for sure), but as far as I’m concerned, I believe him completely that (presumably) unlicensed copies of UK TV programs were made available to the white population via these platforms in the 60’s & 70’s in apartheid SA and could have possibly included programs no longer held in the UK archives.
This guy has no interest per-ce in Missing Episodes and he was there and so I feel that he is very likely to be generally right on this and in my opinion there’s little if any justification in trying to discredit what he has said.
As far as I’m aware, the only person on the forum who has attempted any investigation of this was me and I certainly haven’t discredited his recollections, although as I’ve been off the forum for 19 months I’m happy to be proved wrong on this.
I feel much the same about Neil and the NZ School Sports day recollections. He has independent witnesses that it actually happened too don’t forget.
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Post by John Wall on Sept 6, 2023 19:53:53 GMT
It’s clear what happened in SA. Prints of film series, possibly UK as well as US, circulated before TV started. Consequently those around at the time “saw” TV programmes on 16mm. After TV started and, subsequently, VCRs became available they saw the programmes identified on this forum on either broadcast TV or bootleg cassette. There wasn’t a single UK programme identified that didn’t fit that explanation. 45+ years later the programmes seen after TV started were conflated with those seen on 16mm before it started.
As to what Neil may, or may not, have seen that’s also best explained by a conflation/jumbling of memories and the recollection of the short filler immediately preceding DW is close to proof of that. He saw MT when TVNZ broadcast it and later saw something at school, a contemporary film featuring giant crabs has been identified. Are we really expected to believe that in addition to DW Neil again saw the same filler that preceded Episode 3 of MT that day at school? The others who, supposedly, saw MT were, again, remembering something from decades before, perhaps they saw something with giant crabs?
It’s a bit like those supposed to have seen Savages but probably saw Monster of Peladon.
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Post by richardwoods on Sept 6, 2023 20:27:32 GMT
It’s clear what happened in SA. Prints of film series, possibly UK as well as US, circulated before TV started. Consequently those around at the time “saw” TV programmes on 16mm. After TV started and, subsequently, VCRs became available they saw the programmes identified on this forum on either broadcast TV or bootleg cassette. There wasn’t a single UK programme identified that didn’t fit that explanation. 45+ years later the programmes seen after TV started were conflated with those seen on 16mm before it started. As to what Neil may, or may not, have seen that’s also best explained by a conflation/jumbling of memories and the recollection of the short filler immediately preceding DW is close to proof of that. He saw MT when TVNZ broadcast it and later saw something at school, a contemporary film featuring giant crabs has been identified. Are we really expected to believe that in addition to DW Neil again saw the same filler that preceded Episode 3 of MT that day at school? The others who, supposedly, saw MT were, again, remembering something from decades before, perhaps they saw something with giant crabs? It’s a bit like those supposed to have seen Savages but probably saw Monster of Peladon. I’m not sure that I really agree with you on either point, in both cases you make logical and coherent arguments to explain away what Hendry and Neil recollect but, and it’s a big but, in both cases the individuals involved, who were after all there at the time, are clear that they remember things differently from the version of events you suggest. My feeling is that we should “trust” the individuals and their memories to be “right” unless concrete proof turns up that proves otherwise. Again that’s just my opinion and of course you are perfectly entitled to yours too, John. On the other hand I understand & agree that it’s really important to challenge these sort of recollections & memories to see how well they stand up. |
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Post by richardwoods on Sept 6, 2023 20:30:22 GMT
Mmm, I’m not entirely convinced by explaining away The possible screening of The Savages as The Monster of Peladon either, but that’s just me. 🤣🤣🤣
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Post by richardwoods on Sept 6, 2023 20:36:01 GMT
Of course you may well be right in all three cases John, in reality though we may never know for sure.
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Post by Nicholas Fitzpatrick on Sept 6, 2023 20:39:02 GMT
As far as I’m aware, the only person on the forum who has attempted any investigation of this was me and I certainly haven’t discredited his recollections, although as I’ve been off the forum for 19 months I’m happy to be proved wrong on this. I've not said anything, but I've tried to dig out South African newspapers of that period, to see what might be in the classified, etc. But I've found nothing online to even search. Jon Preddle and his contacts have always been best at digging out obscure stuff like that. Any luck? |
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Post by richardwoods on Sept 6, 2023 20:48:19 GMT
As far as I’m aware, the only person on the forum who has attempted any investigation of this was me and I certainly haven’t discredited his recollections, although as I’ve been off the forum for 19 months I’m happy to be proved wrong on this. I've not said anything, but I've tried to dig out South African newspapers of that period, to see what might be in the classified, etc. But I've found nothing online to even search. Jon Preddle and his contacts have always been best at digging out obscure stuff like that. Any luck? Excellent stuff and thanks for trying. I would be really interested to hear if any progress has been made by anyone else. |
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Post by Richard Bignell on Sept 6, 2023 21:26:13 GMT
Who said anything about the short film with speedboat racing and ice sculptures the proceeded it being something that TVNZ had broadcast before the episode? Certainly not Neil. To be fair, he doesn't even say that they were on the same reel. Just that one followed the other. ‘the print I saw at the school started with a" world around us" 5 minute short featuring speedboats and ice sculpture in Japan -including thunderbird 2 ) then doctor who started and I'm pretty sure it was ep 3 ..... funnily enough a couple of years ago Jon Preddle discovered that ep 3 of Macra screened with a "world around us " short before hand ....the only episode of Macra to do so in NZ.......’ I think this case can be closed. Okay. You've picked up on a different account from the one I looked at. So, from Jon's investigations, the TVNZ screen a film short before they broadcast the episode of The Macra Terror, also direct from film. It's hardly a leap of logic to suggest that they might have spliced the two together to go directly from one to the other on transmission. So, it's not "case closed" at all. If anything, it adds weight to his account rather than disproving it. |
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Post by John Wall on Sept 6, 2023 21:35:31 GMT
It’s clear what happened in SA. Prints of film series, possibly UK as well as US, circulated before TV started. Consequently those around at the time “saw” TV programmes on 16mm. After TV started and, subsequently, VCRs became available they saw the programmes identified on this forum on either broadcast TV or bootleg cassette. There wasn’t a single UK programme identified that didn’t fit that explanation. 45+ years later the programmes seen after TV started were conflated with those seen on 16mm before it started. As to what Neil may, or may not, have seen that’s also best explained by a conflation/jumbling of memories and the recollection of the short filler immediately preceding DW is close to proof of that. He saw MT when TVNZ broadcast it and later saw something at school, a contemporary film featuring giant crabs has been identified. Are we really expected to believe that in addition to DW Neil again saw the same filler that preceded Episode 3 of MT that day at school? The others who, supposedly, saw MT were, again, remembering something from decades before, perhaps they saw something with giant crabs? It’s a bit like those supposed to have seen Savages but probably saw Monster of Peladon. I’m not sure that I really agree with you on either point, in both cases you make logical and coherent arguments to explain away what Hendry and Neil recollect but, and it’s a big but, in both cases the individuals involved, who were after all there at the time, are clear that they remember things differently from the version of events you suggest. My feeling is that we should “trust” the individuals and their memories to be “right” unless concrete proof turns up that proves otherwise. Again that’s just my opinion and of course you are perfectly entitled to yours too, John. On the other hand I understand & agree that it’s really important to challenge these sort of recollections & memories to see how well they stand up. I’m an Engineer, I look at things and think logically. wrt SA titles were quoted which, thanks to Google, etc could be checked - and just didn’t add up. With programmes made on VT someone would have had to have made illicit telerecordings, etc for which they would have wanted a quantity of used, non-consecutively numbered fivers in a brown paper envelope. But the money would have been subsequently made down the line in SA. With film series the Americans were turning out prints like shelling peas - one of the few things we know about PM is that he found piles of prints of US film series! it’s worth noting just how unreliable memory can be. When an identity parade is held it’s often the villainous looking copper there to make up the numbers who’s picked out. Michael Parkinson recently passed away. I used to watch him in the 70s and 80s, immediately after Match of the Day. But there have been a lot of repeats/compilations so which guests did I see at the time and which later? I didn’t keep any sort of record so have no idea. Consider the cinema, which films did I first see there or on TV? Nowadays as the cinema is close, I can get a ticket for £4.99, and have the time I’ll go and see films that interest me - but it was different in the past. Unless someone has a contemporary record/diary the best option is to treat any memory with the utmost scepticism. Over the years I’ve been a sceptic here and I’d suggest that my record is good. The Omnirumour is now about a decade ago but, despite the hordes desperate to believe it, I challenged it on the basis of its logical inconsistencies - it’s delivered zero MEs. I’m quite happy to accept that Neil, et al saw something at school all those years ago, but how many kept a diary/journal at the time? “Dear Diary, today everything was rained off but we saw a DW story called The Macra Terror which I’d previously seen on TV”. I’d suggest it was zero. There are also problems with the dates. iirc a few weeks after this, alleged, showing MT was, iirc, sent back to the UK meaning that someone had to have “borrowed” it and then returned it in time for it to have been sent back to London. There’s another pile of unlikely circumstances in that! We shouldn’t “trust” what people say unless they can back it up with contemporary documentation. |
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Post by John Wall on Sept 6, 2023 21:56:29 GMT
‘the print I saw at the school started with a" world around us" 5 minute short featuring speedboats and ice sculpture in Japan -including thunderbird 2 ) then doctor who started and I'm pretty sure it was ep 3 ..... funnily enough a couple of years ago Jon Preddle discovered that ep 3 of Macra screened with a "world around us " short before hand ....the only episode of Macra to do so in NZ.......’ I think this case can be closed. Okay. You've picked up on a different account from the one I looked at. So, from Jon's investigations, the TVNZ screen a film short before they broadcast the episode of The Macra Terror, also direct from film. It's hardly a leap of logic to suggest that they might have spliced the two together to go directly from one to the other on transmission. So, it's not "case closed" at all. If anything, it adds weight to his account rather than disproving it. Clearly films can be spliced together. However, the DW prints, like everything else from Auntie or other suppliers, could, once the NZ rights had expired, be recalled for resale - or maybe destruction - or be bicycled on. After broadcast by TVNZ - although they might have been put onto VT first - the prints would go back to the store. Are we really expected to believe that a DW, or any, print would go back to the store with a filler/short tacked onto the start? Are there any other examples of this? |
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Post by John Wall on Sept 6, 2023 22:01:23 GMT
Mmm, I’m not entirely convinced by explaining away The possible screening of The Savages as The Monster of Peladon either, but that’s just me. 🤣🤣🤣 Argue that with Jon Preddle, I think you’ll find that MoP had been shown at the time. |
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Post by richardwoods on Sept 7, 2023 6:29:12 GMT
Mmm, I’m not entirely convinced by explaining away The possible screening of The Savages as The Monster of Peladon either, but that’s just me. 🤣🤣🤣 Argue that with Jon Preddle, I think you’ll find that MoP had been shown at the time. You are probably right but I always try to be positive with these sort of reports when there is at least a small amount of logic supporting them🤞 |
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Post by richardwoods on Sept 7, 2023 6:41:04 GMT
I’m not sure that I really agree with you on either point, in both cases you make logical and coherent arguments to explain away what Hendry and Neil recollect but, and it’s a big but, in both cases the individuals involved, who were after all there at the time, are clear that they remember things differently from the version of events you suggest. My feeling is that we should “trust” the individuals and their memories to be “right” unless concrete proof turns up that proves otherwise. Again that’s just my opinion and of course you are perfectly entitled to yours too, John. On the other hand I understand & agree that it’s really important to challenge these sort of recollections & memories to see how well they stand up. I’m an Engineer, I look at things and think logically. wrt SA titles were quoted which, thanks to Google, etc could be checked - and just didn’t add up. With programmes made on VT someone would have had to have made illicit telerecordings, etc for which they would have wanted a quantity of used, non-consecutively numbered fivers in a brown paper envelope. But the money would have been subsequently made down the line in SA. With film series the Americans were turning out prints like shelling peas - one of the few things we know about PM is that he found piles of prints of US film series! it’s worth noting just how unreliable memory can be. When an identity parade is held it’s often the villainous looking copper there to make up the numbers who’s picked out. Michael Parkinson recently passed away. I used to watch him in the 70s and 80s, immediately after Match of the Day. But there have been a lot of repeats/compilations so which guests did I see at the time and which later? I didn’t keep any sort of record so have no idea. Consider the cinema, which films did I first see there or on TV? Nowadays as the cinema is close, I can get a ticket for £4.99, and have the time I’ll go and see films that interest me - but it was different in the past. Unless someone has a contemporary record/diary the best option is to treat any memory with the utmost scepticism. Over the years I’ve been a sceptic here and I’d suggest that my record is good. The Omnirumour is now about a decade ago but, despite the hordes desperate to believe it, I challenged it on the basis of its logical inconsistencies - it’s delivered zero MEs. I’m quite happy to accept that Neil, et al saw something at school all those years ago, but how many kept a diary/journal at the time? “Dear Diary, today everything was rained off but we saw a DW story called The Macra Terror which I’d previously seen on TV”. I’d suggest it was zero. There are also problems with the dates. iirc a few weeks after this, alleged, showing MT was, iirc, sent back to the UK meaning that someone had to have “borrowed” it and then returned it in time for it to have been sent back to London. There’s another pile of unlikely circumstances in that! We shouldn’t “trust” what people say unless they can back it up with contemporary documentation. Of course you make a valid point here, and being a now retired engineer myself I have sympathy with where you a coming from, I completely get that you can’t wish something into existence. Unfortunately without that leap of faith it sometimes takes if you like we wouldn’t have Phil Morris’ returns for example so I think it pays to keep an open mind. |
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