|
|
Post by richardwoods on Sept 8, 2023 15:39:12 GMT
No, the only possibility would be for 16mm film prints smuggled in from Rhodesia to SA & then copied for distribution.
As discussed all this is all complete speculation. To reiterate there is no evidence that this happened & is only really worth considering because of the two countries having pariah status and a close relationship as a result during the 60’s & 70’s during UDI & apartheid.
|
|
|
|
Post by John Wall on Sept 8, 2023 15:54:02 GMT
Fawlty Towers was a VT show, multicamera studio with filmed inserts mastered onto 2” VT. So, how do you get that onto 16mm? The 2” VT has to be taken out of the store and put onto a telerecording machine to transfer it to 16mm. All of that needs paperwork with cost codes/job numbers and a skilled operator for the machine. SA was isolated for a long time because of apartheid so I’m unsure when they were able to buy BBC shows. However, home video would have probably followed TV by a few years and, as I’ve said before, bootleg cassettes would have easily made it from the UK. There were flights to/from the UK and people in each country with family in the other. Consequently we can say, not on the balance of probabilities but beyond reasonable doubt that someone didn’t see Fawlty Towers on 16mm in SA, however it’s extremely likely that they saw it on a bootleg cassette. I wouldn’t disagree with John’s analysis here to be honest, but Hendry is adamant in his belief that it was seen on film so you pay your money & take your choice. I suggest that he saw a bootleg copy and associated bootleg with 16mm. |
|
|
|
Post by George D on Sept 8, 2023 16:33:08 GMT
I can't prove conclusively that he owned it but as the Lion was kept in storage in a farm shed in Masterton alongside many other film prints (the shed containing some of their owners collection ) and as Masterton was where I saw Macra and where both I and it's probable owner lived there's a interesting probability they could have been owned by the same person Adding to my speculation the person storing the films in the shed was only a friend of the actual films owner and after the prints were abandoned ( ... around the same time the school teacher was in jail ) he decided to sell them /give them away to a local film collector Larry Duggan .who eventually on sold the Lion in 1998. Sadly we all missed the boat here in NZ as Larry Duggan was concerned and his collection was on sold and some of it dumped after his death ....so we don't know what else was in the Masterton shed or what the collector took to Wanganui. Two scenarios. He saw it, or he didn't. If he saw it, because this film collector was in same town, this was likely was the source which has been researched and sadly likely binned or a dead end. If he didn't see it, then there is nothing existing and still the same conclusion While people can have faulty memories, the supporting memories (the 5 minute film seen before and labeling it a repeat at the time hence was familiar with Dr who) give the memory more support. Regardless of if he saw it, there was a film collector in Masterton, he is gone, the collector had the lion, and we dont know what else and unless a new lead comes about the distribution of this collection, we have come to a dead end. the macra siting now connects to a more recent Masterton collection and any further leads will come from that |
|
|
|
Post by John Wall on Sept 8, 2023 17:05:43 GMT
No, the only possibility would be for 16mm film prints smuggled in from Rhodesia to SA & then copied for distribution. As discussed all this is all complete speculation. To reiterate there is no evidence that this happened & is only really worth considering because of the two countries having pariah status and a close relationship as a result during the 60’s & 70’s during UDI & apartheid. There’s more potential plausibility here. SA had the ability to duplicate things, there was clearly the demand and probably an official blind eye. In order to easily make prints you want a negative but negatives can be fairly easily made from prints. So, how do you get hold of a print? Lots of places may be more relaxed than the UK but it’s still reasonable to assume that things like prints would be stored somewhere with a lock. The only palm to grease is that of the key holder but you don’t want to “borrow” things for too long in case there’s a check. With the ability to make a negative from a print you only need to “borrow” the print, say, overnight. The negative is then sent to SA and the print is back on its shelf the next morning. Before home video came along there were plenty of stories of labs doing “sensitive” processing outside normal hours. |
|
|
|
Post by John Wall on Sept 8, 2023 17:12:11 GMT
I can't prove conclusively that he owned it but as the Lion was kept in storage in a farm shed in Masterton alongside many other film prints (the shed containing some of their owners collection ) and as Masterton was where I saw Macra and where both I and it's probable owner lived there's a interesting probability they could have been owned by the same person Adding to my speculation the person storing the films in the shed was only a friend of the actual films owner and after the prints were abandoned ( ... around the same time the school teacher was in jail ) he decided to sell them /give them away to a local film collector Larry Duggan .who eventually on sold the Lion in 1998. Sadly we all missed the boat here in NZ as Larry Duggan was concerned and his collection was on sold and some of it dumped after his death ....so we don't know what else was in the Masterton shed or what the collector took to Wanganui. Two scenarios. He saw it, or he didn't. If he saw it, because this film collector was in same town, this was likely was the source which has been researched and sadly likely binned or a dead end. If he didn't see it, then there is nothing existing and still the same conclusion While people can have faulty memories, the supporting memories (the 5 minute film seen before and labeling it a repeat at the time hence was familiar with Dr who) give the memory more support. Regardless of if he saw it, there was a film collector in Masterton, he is gone, the collector had the lion, and we dont know what else and unless a new lead comes about the distribution of this collection, we have come to a dead end. the macra siting now connects to a more recent Masterton collection and any further leads will come from that Sorry, but the alleged presence of the 5 minute short effectively destroys the credibility as you’ve got to postulate an extremely unlikely set of circumstances for that short to have been spliced onto the start of the MT print and then sent back to the store from where it was “borrowed”. Remember also that the MT prints were either destroyed or returned to London - don’t recall which - shortly after this alleged screening. I’m now close to certain that MT wasn’t shown at a school. |
|
|
|
Post by George D on Sept 8, 2023 17:29:46 GMT
Sorry, but the alleged presence of the 5 minute short effectively destroys the credibility as you’ve got to postulate an extremely unlikely set of circumstances for that short to have been spliced onto the start of the MT print and then sent back to the store from where it was “borrowed”. Remember also that the MT prints were either destroyed or returned to London - don’t recall which - shortly after this alleged screening. I’m now close to certain that MT wasn’t shown at a school. I respect your conclusion as a possibility. The two scenarios of seeing or not seeing is moot to me, if there was a collection in that town which would be the area of research. Because regardless of if he saw it or not, that is superceded by researching this collection ( which I'm under the assumption that has other supporting evidence) The question comes , does seeing a nature short first, negative his memory ? No one has said what the nature short was about hence we can't even conclude it's the same. Assuming it is, the question does it confirm or deny the rumor? If it was the same, then one conclusion is they pasted it on the beginning of the 16mm and forgot to take it off. The other very remote possibility was that it was a video recording If one uses it to negate the theory, it means that it was a memory from the broadcast. To put weight to either theory would involve knowing how nztv worked their films. How a 5 minute short film was shown before or after an episode in nz |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 8, 2023 17:31:26 GMT
Two scenarios. He saw it, or he didn't. If he saw it, because this film collector was in same town, this was likely was the source which has been researched and sadly likely binned or a dead end. If he didn't see it, then there is nothing existing and still the same conclusion While people can have faulty memories, the supporting memories (the 5 minute film seen before and labeling it a repeat at the time hence was familiar with Dr who) give the memory more support. Regardless of if he saw it, there was a film collector in Masterton, he is gone, the collector had the lion, and we dont know what else and unless a new lead comes about the distribution of this collection, we have come to a dead end. the macra siting now connects to a more recent Masterton collection and any further leads will come from that Sorry, but the alleged presence of the 5 minute short effectively destroys the credibility as you’ve got to postulate an extremely unlikely set of circumstances for that short to have been spliced onto the start of the MT print and then sent back to the store from where it was “borrowed”. Remember also that the MT prints were either destroyed or returned to London - don’t recall which - shortly after this alleged screening. I’m now close to certain that MT wasn’t shown at a school. I think he saw it twice, once when it originally aired in NZ TV, and the other time at a school. I think he got the bits of his memories mixed up due to watching it twice, plus having him recall it 30 to 40 years after the event. |
|
|
|
Post by John Wall on Sept 8, 2023 18:00:10 GMT
Sorry, but the alleged presence of the 5 minute short effectively destroys the credibility as you’ve got to postulate an extremely unlikely set of circumstances for that short to have been spliced onto the start of the MT print and then sent back to the store from where it was “borrowed”. Remember also that the MT prints were either destroyed or returned to London - don’t recall which - shortly after this alleged screening. I’m now close to certain that MT wasn’t shown at a school. I respect your conclusion as a possibility. The two scenarios of seeing or not seeing is moot to me, if there was a collection in that town which would be the area of research. Because regardless of if he saw it or not, that is superceded by researching this collection ( which I'm under the assumption that has other supporting evidence) The question comes , does seeing a nature short first, negative his memory ? No one has said what the nature short was about hence we can't even conclude it's the same. Assuming it is, the question does it confirm or deny the rumor? If it was the same, then one conclusion is they pasted it on the beginning of the 16mm and forgot to take it off. The other very remote possibility was that it was a video recording If one uses it to negate the theory, it means that it was a memory from the broadcast. To put weight to either theory would involve knowing how nztv worked their films. How a 5 minute short film was shown before or after an episode in nz We know what the short was about and Jon Preddle confirmed it was broadcast before MT3. There’s nothing implausible about splicing film together. But why do that with a print, DW, that was subject to instructions from London? Are there any other examples of this? None have been provided. This was New.Zealand, part of the Anglosphere not what Hacker called a TPLAC. Are we expected to believe that an outfit like that would splice films together and then, presumably, put the combination back in store? This is only being postulated to make the showing of MT at a school more likely. Once it’s realised - and as I’ve repeatedly demonstrated - that memory is extremely fallible the simplest explanation is that the original broadcast of MT has been confused with something else, probably a film featuring giant crabs. |
|
|
|
Post by George D on Sept 8, 2023 18:16:20 GMT
We know what the short was about and Jon Preddle confirmed it was broadcast before MT3. We know it was an"a world around us" shore was aired. Did Jon's log state which specific episode and the contents? If neil recalled that before jon did research, that's a strong correlation. Most recall what's significant. Not the nature short.. also the question is remembering the short in the setting of the school meaning how him and his friends reacted vs the short itself. Also if it was on tv, we generally view what aired before as insignificant and forgotten. But the school setting where the two were part of a special event would make it memorable. There’s nothing implausible about splicing film together. But why do that with a print, DW, that was subject to instructions from London? If we were talking about a larger print, I'd agree with you I'm not sure if you ever used 16mm projectors but most reels are size of a 30-60 min show. Rather then set up two projectors for something this small, it might have been easier to splice it on the beginning of the 16mm to make an easier broadcasr and forgot to remove it. Are there any other examples of this? None have been provided. This was New.Zealand, part of the Anglosphere not what Hacker called a TPLAC. Are we expected to believe that an outfit like that would splice films together and then, presumably, put the combination back in store? This is only being postulated to make the showing of MT at a school more likely. That or a video tape or watching during broadcast. There definitely exist 16mm film prints of tv shows with commercials spliced in. Once it’s realised - and as I’ve repeatedly demonstrated - that memory is extremely fallible the simplest explanation is that the original broadcast of MT has been confused with something else, probably a film featuring giant crabs. We agree memory is fallable and can become exagerated. The question is, if we are assuming a faulty memory, then how was he aware accurately the topic of the preceding short before jon discovered the schedule? Out of all the towns in nz, what are the odds of a film collection with missing dr who existing in the same town as this sighting? |
|
|
|
Post by John Wall on Sept 8, 2023 19:11:21 GMT
It’s been stated that it was a film show and afaik JP confirmed the short. It’s extremely unlikely that what they saw was on VT as there’s a limit as to how many kids could watch a, maybe, 20/22/24” TV. You’ve then got to postulate someone in NZ in the very early 1970s having what was then a very expensive piece of kit and being a DW fan….
Why should we assume a “mistake”? Most TV stations have reasonably standard schedules so that viewers know when to tune in so it may be that TVNZ regularly showed a short/filler before DW in which case the recollection should have included more things before episodes.
All of this is, quite frankly, desperation. We’re being asked to believe multiple impossible things before breakfast just to make it more likely that MT was shown in a school in NZ when the simplest, most logical, answer is that we’ve got mixed up memories and that the recollection of something preceding that was definitely broadcast is actually evidence of mixed up memories.
|
|
|
|
Post by Jon Preddle on Sept 8, 2023 20:09:08 GMT
Some points that need clarifying:
1) the inter-school event during which one episode of Macra Terror was apparently screened was in February 1974, a date confirmed from contemporary governmental school records
2) All four eps of TMT are marked as being destroyed by the NZBC in July 1974, five months later
3) the school is in a town over an hour's drive out of Wellington
While no direct connection between the headmaster (who was a known film collector) and any NZBC staff has been identified, it's not impossible that he was able to 'borrow' the films for a period before returning them.
Regarding the film shorts:
Neil recalls there was short documentry about jet boats and Japanese ice sculptures (one of which was of Thunderbird 2).
The programme that had aired immediately before Macra 3 when it aired in all four regions of NZ, was an edition of Tomorrow Today, a COI series similar to Tomorrow's World. But there has never been any indication - certainly not by me - that it was this programme that was shown at the school, nor that it was spliced onto the start of the DW episode when it was screened for the kids.
(Several editions of TT are held by the BFI. The online catalogue gives brief synopses of some; none of those mentions ice sculptures or jet boats.)
|
|
|
|
Post by John Wall on Sept 8, 2023 20:15:57 GMT
Some points that need clarifying: 1) the inter-school event during which one episode of Macra Terror was apparently screened was in February 1974, a date confirmed from contemporary governmental school records 2) All four eps of TMT are marked as being destroyed by the NZBC in July 1974, five months later 3) the school is in a town over an hour's drive out of Wellington While no direct connection between the headmaster (who was a known film collector) and any NZBC staff has been identified, it's not impossible that he was able to 'borrow' the films for a period before returning them. Regarding the film shorts: Neil recalls there was short documentry about jet boats and Japanese ice sculptures (one of which was of Thunderbird 2). The programme that had aired immediately before Macra 3 when it aired in all four regions of NZ, was an edition of Tomorrow Today, a COI series similar to Tomorrow's World. But there has never been any indication - certainly not by me - that it was this programme that was shown at the school, nor that it was spliced onto the start of the DW episode when it was screened for the kids. (Several editions of TT are held by the BFI. The online catalogue gives brief synopses of some; none of those mentions ice sculptures or jet boats.) This is the testimony, ‘the print I saw at the school started with a" world around us" 5 minute short featuring speedboats and ice sculpture in Japan -including thunderbird 2 ) then doctor who started and I'm pretty sure it was ep 3 ..... funnily enough a couple of years ago Jon Preddle discovered that ep 3 of Macra screened with a "world around us " short before hand ....the only episode of Macra to do so in NZ.......’ |
|
|
|
Post by sonnybh on Sept 8, 2023 20:40:59 GMT
I assume the BBC had abandoned making film copies of videotaped programmes by 1975, which would rule out Fawlty Towers being exported as a 16mm print.
|
|
|
|
Post by Richard Bignell on Sept 8, 2023 20:53:23 GMT
There’s nothing implausible about splicing film together. But why do that with a print, DW, that was subject to instructions from London? Why not? They were clearly allowed to chop out whatever bits their review boards deemed necessary, so it clearly want actually that big a deal what happened to the print once it had been sold to the major antipodean players. I really fail to see why this is such a big deal for you. If they spliced on the short for original transmission purposes, they could just as easily take it off again, if required to do so. You seem to be jumping through ever larger hoops in order to try to discredit what Neil is absolutely certain that he saw. |
|
|
|
Post by John Wall on Sept 8, 2023 20:53:57 GMT
I assume the BBC had abandoned making film copies of videotaped programmes by 1975, which would rule out Fawlty Towers being exported as a 16mm print. For DW I think the last telerecordings were in Season 11. The problem, as I outlined above, is the bureaucratic hoops you’d need to jump through to get a 16mm telerecording made from a 2” VT. I’m as near certain as I can be that Fawlty Towers was seen in SA on a bootleg cassette from, probably, a UK broadcast. In the late 70s/early 80s UK fans were “acquiring” off air recordings of DW from Australia. |
|
