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Post by johnw on Jul 5, 2023 1:40:47 GMT
Well, indeed, I concur with all of that. I suppose it's more likely to happen in the public sector where people tend not to do anything without a proper paper-trail, which tends to stop pretty much anything happening. We live in hope :-) Richard I once worked at a company 20 years ago and there were rooms of files and documents that were stored and I was told had been there for 15 years, mainly due to retention periods, and nobody had the time to purge what could be chucked. I suppose it's very different now in the digital world. |
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Post by andyparting on Jul 5, 2023 7:13:20 GMT
Including the fake Evil of the Daleks one. Shrink wrapped? That's just the clear adhesive around the barcode. The barcode has nothing to do with shipping. It's the internal reference number of the can at BBC Archives, where the picture was taken. Thanks for clearing that up, Richard. Are there any more photos online of other film cans? |
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Post by andyparting on Jul 5, 2023 7:15:31 GMT
I've seen that picture of the (alleged) Evil 2 film can several times at this point. I'm assuming that's the one that's fake. I'm just curious, do you know how the image originated? What's in the can is quite real - Episode 2 of The Evil of the Daleks. However, owner Gordon Hendry got some colour reproductions of BBC film can labels made for his own amusement so that can looked more authentic. The labels on there are the ones he put on and the handwriting is Gordon's. I remember the film can of Evil 2 sitting in the window of the Who Shop, East Ham, 1999 |
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Post by awpeacock on Jul 5, 2023 7:59:46 GMT
So the BBC did it. Without announcing it. And literally nobody working within the BBC involved knew anybody who was vaguely interested in any of the shows to say anything to? It really was a different world back then. The BBC wiped the master videotapes all the time. It was accepted practice. Productions didn't own them, they effectively just rented them for a period of time from the Engineering department before they went back into circulation or had to be replaced. As Barry Letts himself said, once they had been broadcast (and bar the odd compilation repeat), they didn't much care what happened to them as repeats were extremely limited on the channels and they were always focused on what was to come, not what had been. The BBC Enterprises sales prints were kept as long as they held the rights to sell them and broadcasters wanted to keep buying them. Once those opportunities were exhausted, they were of no lasting value to them. They couldn't just give them away. I think this is probably the key answer for me - if it was just common, standard practice all the time then there was no reason or way for the news to leak out. Again, my original question wasn't even particularly about someone keeping something in the hopes of watching it again but just so they had a great piece of unique memorabilia (I have film cels of movies, fragments of my favourite sports team's old stadium, etc. for example) But if these were just being routinely being dumped as standard practice without a second thought and nobody outside the offices had a clue then we didn't stand a chance. |
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Richard Develyn
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Post by Richard Develyn on Jul 5, 2023 10:08:57 GMT
While we're on this subject, I'd like to advance another theory to see what people think.
It came out of a discussion I had quite a while ago when I was talking to some guys, who used to work for Pakistani TV (PTV), about missing episodes.
Basically, they said, the chances of anyone in any of these foreign TV stations doing a thorough search for missing episodes in response to some request from the BBC or, indeed, anybody that they didn't personally know, and owed a few favours to, was zilch.
No one would have spent more than 5 minutes glancing at a shelf before saying - "sorry, no, nothing here".
The only way a foreign TV station could be classified as being thoroughly searched is if someone from here went there and thoroughly searched it.
Equally, you shouldn't put too much credence on little bits of paper signed and returned to the BBC saying "Yes, we've destroyed this now". All that proves is that someone signed a bit of paper and put it in the post. Maybe that person thought to themselves that they would get around to destroying whatever it was that was supposed to be destroyed in due time, however, people who live in countries which are basically on the make (which is probably most countries, actually) are loathe to destroy things in case they become valuable in the future (case in point: Web of Fear part 3).
This problem, of course, exists to this day, so it may be less a case of missing episodes no longer existing, but rather of trying to figure out how to persuade some foreign TV station to allow you to look in their basements and then take any stuff that you find away. This is presumably what TIEA is doing, and it may be that they still have lots of places which they haven't been able to get into yet, however, when they do, there is a reasonable chance that they'll find something.
Richard
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Post by awpeacock on Jul 5, 2023 10:35:32 GMT
While we're on this subject, I'd like to advance another theory to see what people think. It came out of a discussion I had quite a while ago when I was talking to some guys, who used to work for Pakistani TV (PTV), about missing episodes. Basically, they said, the chances of anyone in any of these foreign TV stations doing a thorough search for missing episodes in response to some request from the BBC or, indeed, anybody that they didn't personally know, and owed a few favours to, was zilch. No one would have spent more than 5 minutes glancing at a shelf before saying - "sorry, no, nothing here". The only way a foreign TV station could be classified as being thoroughly searched is if someone from here went there and thoroughly searched it. Equally, you shouldn't put too much credence on little bits of paper signed and returned to the BBC saying "Yes, we've destroyed this now". All that proves is that someone signed a bit of paper and put it in the post. Maybe that person thought to themselves that they would get around to destroying whatever it was that was supposed to be destroyed in due time, however, people who live in countries which are basically on the make (which is probably most countries, actually) are loathe to destroy things in case they become valuable in the future (case in point: Web of Fear part 3). This problem, of course, exists to this day, so it may be less a case of missing episodes no longer existing, but rather of trying to figure out how to persuade some foreign TV station to allow you to look in their basements and then take any stuff that you find away. This is presumably what TIEA is doing, and it may be that they still have lots of places which they haven't been able to get into yet, however, when they do, there is a reasonable chance that they'll find something. Richard Yeah, its' that human factor of "What's in it for me?" to go through the extra step of bothering to dispose of something other than just signing the paper. But what then does become of those prints? You'd eventually not be able to move in all these TV stations for film cans ha ha |
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Richard Develyn
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Post by Richard Develyn on Jul 5, 2023 10:39:06 GMT
Well, we know what happened in one instance :-)
I always think it's better to concentrate on reasons why things might still exist, rather than otherwise, regardless of the relative probabilities, because the former encourages people to check things out just in case, whereas the latter makes us all give up.
Richard
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Richard Develyn
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The Cloister Bell is ringing Bong! Bong! The Doctor needs to save us from Climate Change and WW3!
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Post by Richard Develyn on Jul 5, 2023 13:33:37 GMT
Some of you might be interested to see the discussions we were having 25 years ago about this. groups.google.com/g/rec.arts.drwho/c/ZVVXoPVkDak/m/z0OeSsgXQugJI see now that my statement about "little pieces of paper" was debunked by Richard Molesworth at the time. Sorry to repeat that now - I'd forgotten. And I do now have the boxed set of Thriller :-) though I'm too frightened to watch most of it! Richard |
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Post by awpeacock on Jul 5, 2023 14:17:33 GMT
Some of you might be interested to see the discussions we were having 25 years ago about this. groups.google.com/g/rec.arts.drwho/c/ZVVXoPVkDak/m/z0OeSsgXQugJI see now that my statement about "little pieces of paper" was debunked by Richard Molesworth at the time. Sorry to repeat that now - I'd forgotten. And I do now have the boxed set of Thriller :-) though I'm too frightened to watch most of it! Richard Reading that all is going to take a whole heck of a lot of time. But it's a fascinating read. And amazing that anything has ever been recovered judging by the attitudes, Mr Molesworth being a case in point. His logic seemed to be - "The eps aren't there any more, we've looked a bit, there's no paper trail, therefore they obviously don't exist." Yet, by his own admittance (at the point I've read up to) there's literally no difference between the eps that still hadn't been recovered, and ones that have come back that were in private hands (i.e. been "stolen") then it is equally as logical to say that EVERY single episode still exists in some private collectors hands (my original point a while back) as it is to say that EVERY episode is gone forever. Weirdly, for someone as naturally pessimistic as me, I'm still gonna be glass half full and believe MEs are going to come back... |
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Post by Ralph Rose on Jul 5, 2023 14:18:28 GMT
Some of you might be interested to see the discussions we were having 25 years ago about this. groups.google.com/g/rec.arts.drwho/c/ZVVXoPVkDak/m/z0OeSsgXQugJI see now that my statement about "little pieces of paper" was debunked by Richard Molesworth at the time. Sorry to repeat that now - I'd forgotten. And I do now have the boxed set of Thriller :-) though I'm too frightened to watch most of it! Richard Thriller and Out of the Unknown are a must see, in my opinion. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 5, 2023 23:26:05 GMT
So the BBC did it. Without announcing it. And literally nobody working within the BBC involved knew anybody who was vaguely interested in any of the shows to say anything to? It really was a different world back then. The BBC wiped the master videotapes all the time. It was accepted practice. Productions didn't own them, they effectively just rented them for a period of time from the Engineering department before they went back into circulation or had to be replaced. As Barry Letts himself said, once they had been broadcast (and bar the odd compilation repeat), they didn't much care what happened to them as repeats were extremely limited on the channels and they were always focused on what was to come, not what had been. The BBC Enterprises sales prints were kept as long as they held the rights to sell them and broadcasters wanted to keep buying them. Once those opportunities were exhausted, they were of no lasting value to them. They couldn't just give them away. So if some of the master videotapes were junked instead of being wiped, could they still exist? I know there was a master videotape of an Steptoe and Son episode that was returned that way. |
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Post by andyparting on Jul 6, 2023 8:25:35 GMT
The BBC wiped the master videotapes all the time. It was accepted practice. Productions didn't own them, they effectively just rented them for a period of time from the Engineering department before they went back into circulation or had to be replaced. As Barry Letts himself said, once they had been broadcast (and bar the odd compilation repeat), they didn't much care what happened to them as repeats were extremely limited on the channels and they were always focused on what was to come, not what had been. The BBC Enterprises sales prints were kept as long as they held the rights to sell them and broadcasters wanted to keep buying them. Once those opportunities were exhausted, they were of no lasting value to them. They couldn't just give them away. So if some of the master videotapes were junked instead of being wiped, could they still exist? I know there was a master videotape of an Steptoe and Son episode that was returned that way. A master videotape of Out of the Unknown episode 'The Chopper' is as yet unaccounted for. Sent overseas. There are videotapes seen in the background of Phil's photo of the Doctor Who film cans in the Jos relay station. |
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Post by billardery on Jul 11, 2023 15:43:43 GMT
Wanted to circle back to the intended topic of this thread.
There's a lot of understandable skepticism of the idea that Burnett's collection could contain missing DW. After all, he returned the two episodes he knew he had in 2011, so if he had any others, why wouldn't he have returned them then and there?
There's one thing that Stephen Cranford said on Twitter that gives me pause though. Not only are most of the films unlabeled, but Mr. Burnett allegedly told Richard Latto (who negotiated the transfer of Burnett's collection to an archive) that about half of the collection was never catalogued.
Now I'm no expert on film collecting, so perhaps someone else can shed some light on these comments. But to me it sounds like Mr. Burnett had a number of films in his collection that, while he had probably viewed them at some point, he never identified or labeled.
From my brief online research, accounts of the recovery of Galaxy 4's "Air Lock" seem to indicate that Ralph Montagu noticed an identifying label on the can or reel before the episode started rolling. No such info seems to exist for The Underwater Menace 2, but Burnett was able to identify it as Doctor Who soon after he showed Air Lock to Montagu.
Obviously we won't know anything for sure unless/until we're given an official update, and it's likely that no more missing Doctor Who was present in Burnett's collection, but the fact that a large chunk of it was never labeled or catalogued keeps me cautiously optimistic.
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Post by brucew on Jul 11, 2023 20:21:25 GMT
I once met a film collector who had hundreds of cans of films that he had no idea what half of it was purely because of the amount of time it would take to go through it all. He was aware that there missing material, he seemed particularly keen on finding missing Laurel & Hardy films but just couldn't find the time to go through all his stuff. I therefore don't envy whoever is cataloging Mr Burnett's collection and there could easily be something missing in there, equally the easily be nothing.
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Post by John Wall on Jul 11, 2023 20:40:59 GMT
Everything crossed 👍
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