Burnett's Collection

[andyparting]

It cannot be said of these Doctor Who film cans: 'Does exactly what it says on the tin.'

[andyparting]

Jul 3, 2023 8:30:35 GMT Richard Develyn said:

Jul 2, 2023 15:39:10 GMT Paul Vanezis said:

There was an episode of 'The Ice Warriors' in it. But we don't think those four films were returns from abroad. We think they are the Enterprises telerecording editors copies. Except they have no cuts to them. My belief is that the missing episodes 2 & 3 weren't there because they had cuts made to them. Therefore, the films would have been sent to the negative cutter so that any changes made to the print could be made to the negative.

Paul

Hi Paul,

Were telerecording editor copies made for every episode? Typically what would have happened to these?

Richard

Good question! But if these were timing prints, you would only need a few struck, right? These were like working prints for the editor to use, as explained by Paul (page 2). The editor wouldn't need an entire series of Doctor Who to work from - unfortunately!  

[Richard Develyn]

I thought these prints were to check for any glitches or what have you.

[andyparting]

Jul 3, 2023 9:13:25 GMT Richard Develyn said:

I thought these prints were to check for any glitches or what have you.

Sorry, I tried to link to Paul's post on page 2 where he explains what they were for. 

[Richard Develyn]

He says:

"They were for the editor to review and assess, then make cuts to things such as videotape off-locks on the film recordings. And sometimes those changes would be quite minor, just a few frames."

I might be getting confused but that suggests to me that he would need a copy of each episode in order to look for these videotape off-locks (not that I know what that is) and whatever else.

Richard

[andyparting]

Jul 3, 2023 15:12:51 GMT Richard Develyn said:

He says:

"They were for the editor to review and assess, then make cuts to things such as videotape off-locks on the film recordings. And sometimes those changes would be quite minor, just a few frames."

I might be getting confused but that suggests to me that he would need a copy of each episode in order to look for these videotape off-locks (not that I know what that is) and whatever else.

Richard

If so, then that opens up the possibility to finding more episodes out there?

There's more info on these reels here -

broadwcast.org/index.php/The_Ice_Warriors
 

[billardery]

Jun 30, 2023 23:45:09 GMT Paul Vanezis said:

The BFI have quite a few original 1963/4 negatives which were donated to them in 1983 & 1986 by the BBC Archive. The films were regarded as surplus to requirements because the BBC already had a full set of stored field negatives, made in 1967 from the original videotapes. However, some episodes such as 'The Brink of Disaster' and 'Temple of Evil' has some damage and were repaired by duping a section of the poorer quality suppressed field negative and physically splicing it in to the stored field negative.

Then around 2000, when we were preparing The Beginning boxset, we discovered when we opened the picture negative can for 'The Rescue' (the final 7th episode of the first Dalek serial) that inside was no picture negative, but a sound negative. Since then we have had to make do with a scratched 16mm print made from the original suppressed field negative before it was lost, combined with a one-inch videotape copy of the same film before it was scratched.

Then about 2 years ago, Richard Bignell asked me if, when we got around to doing season 1 on Bluray, we would need to make use of the BFI's negatives. It may surprise you to know that I didn't know that they had any early Hartnell negs. So I had a look at their online inventory and the first entry I looked at was for the final episode of The Daleks, the only season 1 episode that we don't have a negative for apart from the returned Reign of Terror eps.

Unfortunately, they too had only a sound negative. But there was a note on the entry; the film had actually not been examined since being deposited with them almost 40 years previously. And why would there be two sound negatives of only that episode? Then I thought about it; when would there have been an opportunity for the original sound negative to be put in a can that had a picture negative label? It's worth noting that the can number for a picture neg and sound neg may not be consecutive, so the only way for the wrong negative to be in the wrong can would be when the film is booked out of the archive. In the early 1980's, the only time that would have happened is when the film would be sent to a laboratory for printing and it would be sent there with... the picture negative. My theory was that the two picture and sound neg cans were sent to a lab to have a print made. The work done, the lab technician put the wrong lids back on the cans. Easily done of you're not paying attention.

I explained my theory to the BFI and, for the first time since the films were donated to them, they checked the contents. My theory was proved correct. Inside the can labelled sound negative was the thought lost picture negative of 'The Rescue'.

We have since had that negative scanned, along with the neg of 'Temple of Evil' and two of three negatives of 'The Brink of Disaster'. In regard to the latter, the BFI had an original, but damaged suppressed field negative, and an incomplete stored field negative. Thankfully, the bit we need, the end section is intact and will be used for a future restoration when we get around to restoring season 1.

It's all thanks to Richard Bignell, who asked that important question.

Paul

Just wanted to clarity, as I've been wondering about the whole suppressed field thing for a while:

The website "The Destruction of Time" lists the following episodes as only existing as suppressed field telerecordings:

• "The Daleks" Episode 7: "The Rescue"
• "The Reign of Terror" Episode 1: "The Land of Fear"
• "The Reign of Terror" Episode 2: "Guests of Madame Guillotine"
• "The Crusade" Episode 1: "The Lion"

The site states that "The Daleks" Episode 5: "The Expedition" has two existing stored field negatives, but both are damaged.

The site also notes that the last five minutes of "The Brink of Disaster" only exist as suppressed field.

No mention is made on the site of "Temple of Evil," but perhaps the site was last updated after this episode was restored from existing stored field material.

From the looks of the quoted reply, "The Rescue," "The Brink of Disaster," and "Temple of Evil" have been restored to full stored field quality.

Would it be accurate to say that, after these finds and restorations, the only existing episodes for which the BBC archival copy (commercial releases notwithstanding) contains significant suppressed field material are the first two episodes of "The Reign of Terror" and the first episode of "The Crusade", the rest of the ones listed having been restored to stored field quality? Does "The Expedition" exist fully in stored field, or does some of the damage overlap between the negatives, requiring the use of suppressed field footage?

[Jon Preddle]

Jul 3, 2023 15:12:51 GMT Richard Develyn said:

He says:

"They were for the editor to review and assess, then make cuts to things such as videotape off-locks on the film recordings. And sometimes those changes would be quite minor, just a few frames."

I might be getting confused but that suggests to me that he would need a copy of each episode in order to look for these videotape off-locks (not that I know what that is) and whatever else.

Richard

And not just every episode of DW, but of everything else sold through Enterprises over the years - which would be in the thousands. That raises the question of many other surviving "Cutting Copies" are there? Were the episodes of Adam Adamant Lives and Z Cars that were found in 1988 alongside The Ice Warriors in similarly marked cans?

[Richard Bignell]

Jul 3, 2023 22:06:51 GMT Jon Preddle said:

Jul 3, 2023 15:12:51 GMT Richard Develyn said:

He says:

"They were for the editor to review and assess, then make cuts to things such as videotape off-locks on the film recordings. And sometimes those changes would be quite minor, just a few frames."

I might be getting confused but that suggests to me that he would need a copy of each episode in order to look for these videotape off-locks (not that I know what that is) and whatever else.

Richard

And not just every episode of DW, but of everything else sold through Enterprises over the years - which would be in the thousands. That raises the question of many other surviving "Cutting Copies" are there? Were the episodes of Adam Adamant Lives and Z Cars that were found in 1988 alongside The Ice Warriors in similarly marked cans?

We know that all 35mm film recordings were certainly quality inspected a few days after being made and a number of the Film Recording Viewing Reports survive for Doctor Who material around 1966 and 1967 such as the final episode of The Power of the Daleks and several of the cliffhanger recordings, which were routinely made from the episodes each week. Those reports would indicate the quality of each film in terms of sound, picture, faults etc.

I don't think it's beyond possibility that the same thing was being done for the 16mm film recordings made for Enterprises and that any significant issues spotted, such as video off-locks would be noted on the report. It may well be that, as a result of a negative report being made on an episode, the recording would then need to be cut to remove the problematic material in order to provide a cleaned-up version for export. Therefore, it would only apply to those episodes that needed amendment, not to every film recording produced.

[jcoleman]

Jul 3, 2023 22:45:31 GMT Richard Bignell said:

We know that all 35mm film recordings were certainly quality inspected a few days after being made and a number of the Film Recording Viewing Reports survive for Doctor Who material around 1966 and 1967 such as the final episode of The Power of the Daleks and several of the cliffhanger recordings, which were routinely made from the episodes each week. Those reports would indicate the quality of each film in terms of sound, picture, faults etc.

I don't think it's beyond possibility that the same thing was being done for the 16mm film recordings made for Enterprises and that any significant issues spotted, such as video off-locks would be noted on the report. It may well be that, as a result of a negative report being made on an episode, the recording would then need to be cut to remove the problematic material in order to provide a cleaned-up version for export. Therefore, it would only apply to those episodes that needed amendment, not to every film recording produced.

That seems logical, but doesn't it contradict Paul's theory regarding uncut editor copies or have I misunderstood?

Jul 2, 2023 15:39:10 GMT Paul Vanezis said:

There was an episode of 'The Ice Warriors' in it. But we don't think those four films were returns from abroad. We think they are the Enterprises telerecording editors copies. Except they have no cuts to them. My belief is that the missing episodes 2 & 3 weren't there because they had cuts made to them. Therefore, the films would have been sent to the negative cutter so that any changes made to the print could be made to the negative.

Paul

[Sue Butcher]

An "off-lock" is a momentary loss of video sync, is that right? Like loss of vertical or horizontal hold on an analogue set?

[timothyk]

Jul 3, 2023 21:32:15 GMT billardery said:

Just wanted to clarity, as I've been wondering about the whole suppressed field thing for a while:

The website "The Destruction of Time" lists the following episodes as only existing as suppressed field telerecordings:

• "The Daleks" Episode 7: "The Rescue"
• "The Reign of Terror" Episode 1: "The Land of Fear"
• "The Reign of Terror" Episode 2: "Guests of Madame Guillotine"
• "The Crusade" Episode 1: "The Lion"

The site states that "The Daleks" Episode 5: "The Expedition" has two existing stored field negatives, but both are damaged.

The site also notes that the last five minutes of "The Brink of Disaster" only exist as suppressed field.

No mention is made on the site of "Temple of Evil," but perhaps the site was last updated after this episode was restored from existing stored field material.

From the looks of the quoted reply, "The Rescue," "The Brink of Disaster," and "Temple of Evil" have been restored to full stored field quality.

Would it be accurate to say that, after these finds and restorations, the only existing episodes for which the BBC archival copy (commercial releases notwithstanding) contains significant suppressed field material are the first two episodes of "The Reign of Terror" and the first episode of "The Crusade", the rest of the ones listed having been restored to stored field quality? Does "The Expedition" exist fully in stored field, or does some of the damage overlap between the negatives, requiring the use of suppressed field footage?

I don't think that website is entirely accurate re. suppressed field material. To my knowledge:

Daleks 5 & 7 exist only as suppressed field, the new BFI negative of part 7 is suppressed field (the part 5 suppressed field neg I think has always been with the BBC - and it's this neg that has some slight scratching). I don't think there is a stored field copy of "The Expedition" in existence
"The Brink of Disaster" last 5 minutes was suppressed field, but the BFI has a better quality stored field negative
"Temple of Evil" stored field negative has the first few minutes replaced by a poorer quality dupe, the suppressed field negative might be better quality for this section
"The Lion" looks like a stored field print to me

Reign of Terror 1 & 2 exist only as suppressed field prints

So it seems the only upgrade from suppressed to stored field from the BFI finds is "The Brink of Disaster", though "The Rescue" suppressed field negative will still be better than the scratched-up print the BBC has!

[Richard Develyn]

Jul 4, 2023 1:58:11 GMT jcoleman said:

Jul 3, 2023 22:45:31 GMT Richard Bignell said:

We know that all 35mm film recordings were certainly quality inspected a few days after being made and a number of the Film Recording Viewing Reports survive for Doctor Who material around 1966 and 1967 such as the final episode of The Power of the Daleks and several of the cliffhanger recordings, which were routinely made from the episodes each week. Those reports would indicate the quality of each film in terms of sound, picture, faults etc.

I don't think it's beyond possibility that the same thing was being done for the 16mm film recordings made for Enterprises and that any significant issues spotted, such as video off-locks would be noted on the report. It may well be that, as a result of a negative report being made on an episode, the recording would then need to be cut to remove the problematic material in order to provide a cleaned-up version for export. Therefore, it would only apply to those episodes that needed amendment, not to every film recording produced.

That seems logical, but doesn't it contradict Paul's theory regarding uncut editor copies or have I misunderstood?

That's how I understood it - the ones that didn't need cutting survived.

So I'll kick off a theory ... an editting print is made of each story. If there's nothing wrong with them all, they just get added to the ones to be sent abroad. If there is a problem, the editor edits the positives on the faulty episodes and sends them off to be mirrored on the negatives. When the positives comes back, they get added to the rest and the whole story now gets sent abroad. In the case of Ice Warriors 2&3 the positives didn't come back for some reason, so the editor was left with 4 orphaned episodes, and these survived.

Richard

[Ralph Rose]

Jul 4, 2023 9:24:35 GMT Richard Develyn said:

Jul 4, 2023 1:58:11 GMT jcoleman said:

That seems logical, but doesn't it contradict Paul's theory regarding uncut editor copies or have I misunderstood?

That's how I understood it - the ones that didn't need cutting survived.

So I'll kick off a theory ... an editting print is made of each story. If there's nothing wrong with them all, they just get added to the ones to be sent abroad. If there is a problem, the editor edits the positives on the faulty episodes and sends them off to be mirrored on the negatives. When the positives comes back, they get added to the rest and the whole story now gets sent abroad. In the case of Ice Warriors 2&3 the positives didn't come back for some reason, so the editor was left with 4 orphaned episodes, and these survived.

Richard

This may just be a coincidence, but the orphaned episodes seem to have gone "walkies", from the BBC, two at a time.

What was the policy of these cutting copies, after they were cut to edit the negatives?  Junked because they had splices, and new positives struck from the edited negs, without splices?

I can see the un-edited cutting copies being re-purposed as you suggest, Richard. It's logical, but not everything the BBC did, was logical.

Fascinating topic.  

[Richard Develyn]

The fact that the 4 existing Ice Warrior episodes are the Telerecording Editor copies is just a theory, of course (if I've read Paul correctly).

The fact that a Telerecording Editor existed as a gatekeeper in the process of getting the films out abroad is interesting because it leads us to speculate on what the flow of film prints might have been in order to support his job.

I don't know. Perhaps it even opens up the possibility that there's an episode or two kicking around somewhere in the BBC basements after the telerecording editor or perhaps the people in charge of cutting the negatives had their offices cleared out into cardboard boxes and then forgotten about. That sort of thing certainly does happen, and I like to live in hope :-)

Richard