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Post by Richard Bignell on Jul 4, 2023 14:05:27 GMT
Alternatively, someone just grabbed them off a pile of labels and didn't notice that they weren't the standard BBC Enterprises ones!
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Richard Develyn
Member
The Cloister Bell is ringing Bong! Bong! The Doctor needs to save us from Climate Change and WW3!
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Post by Richard Develyn on Jul 4, 2023 15:45:24 GMT
One of the things that gives me hope about stuff just still sitting around somewhere is that I've seen through my now-finished career the way that people tend to behave when they're presented with problems they don't have an answer for.
Imagine you've been told you can use an office but when you go in there you find a couple of USB sticks sitting on the window ledge.
You don't know what's in them. You don't know who they belong to. You certainly don't want to chuck them away in case they're important, but you really cannot be bothered "taking the initiative" and actually figuring out what they are. You could pass the problem to your boss but then nobody gets brownie points for giving their boss problems, so you stick them in a jiffy bag, label it, and then put it in some cupboard or another where all the other "somebody else's problem" stuff ends up.
Perhaps one day, some executive with nothing better to do, orders that cupboard emptied no matter what is in it, but even then giving that sort of order is risky, and emptying cupboards is rarely on an executive radar.
So the stuff just sits there. Forever, and ever, and ever, until the company either goes bankrupt or the building gets pulled down or world-war-3 is declared.
Imagine two episodes of Doctor Who are sitting on a shelf somewhere. Someone finds them and perhaps remembers that they were supposed to be junked a few years ago. Curious - why weren't these junked? Don't know, can't be bothered to find out, so let's just leave them there (preferable - someone else can think about it), or move them somewhere else if we need the space.
(Or take them home, I suppose - then if someone asks where they are because they were deliberately not junked then they can always mysteriously reappear again).
Richard
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Post by John Wall on Jul 4, 2023 16:09:17 GMT
The biggest problem is office moves. I’ve been through it and you end up with less space - to save money. Consequently, all the things that had been kept “just in case” get binned. I can remember going through “inherited” filing cabinets that hadn’t been looked in for about 25 years - the contents just went.
TV stations are the same - TV Centre was built to be a conveyor belt of umpteen shows recorded on 2” VT in multicamera stufios. That’s all history now. Were any MEs found when TV Centre was vacated? Or were any old film cans found in the bottom of desk drawers just binned as that was the easiest option?
How many TV stations are still in the same building(s) they were in in, say, 1973 when they might have had some 16mm DW? Remember when PM got into that “store” in Jos that probably hadn’t been touched for 40+ years. That could happen in somewhere in Nigeria. Could it happen in London, Sydney, Hong Kong, Singapore, etc!
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Richard Develyn
Member
The Cloister Bell is ringing Bong! Bong! The Doctor needs to save us from Climate Change and WW3!
Posts: 587
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Post by Richard Develyn on Jul 4, 2023 16:25:48 GMT
Well, indeed, I concur with all of that. I suppose it's more likely to happen in the public sector where people tend not to do anything without a proper paper-trail, which tends to stop pretty much anything happening.
We live in hope :-)
Richard
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Post by John Wall on Jul 4, 2023 16:33:45 GMT
I was in the public sector…. There have been a lot of office moves there! A while back a lot of people were moved out of central London to Bristol.
When computers started being networked - before Wi-Fi - there was a need to accommodate a lot more cabling. We moved into new buildings with false floors. At that time it was often cheaper to demolish buildings that try to cable them.
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Post by andyparting on Jul 4, 2023 17:34:41 GMT
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Post by awpeacock on Jul 4, 2023 19:06:00 GMT
The biggest problem is office moves. I’ve been through it and you end up with less space - to save money. Consequently, all the things that had been kept “just in case” get binned. I can remember going through “inherited” filing cabinets that hadn’t been looked in for about 25 years - the contents just went. TV stations are the same - TV Centre was built to be a conveyor belt of umpteen shows recorded on 2” VT in multicamera stufios. That’s all history now. Were any MEs found when TV Centre was vacated? Or were any old film cans found in the bottom of desk drawers just binned as that was the easiest option? How many TV stations are still in the same building(s) they were in in, say, 1973 when they might have had some 16mm DW? Remember when PM got into that “store” in Jos that probably hadn’t been touched for 40+ years. That could happen in somewhere in Nigeria. Could it happen in London, Sydney, Hong Kong, Singapore, etc! There's one thing that I've always found confusing, having been born at a time (just) that videotapes were a thing and watching and rewatching TV was a thing, and TV shows being popular was a thing and "fans" were a thing (which presumably was the case back in the 60s and 70s - hence the show still existing, and annuals and the films and whatnot)... How did any of it get destroyed at all? Unless nobody who had any interest in Doctor Who had any inkling of what was going on, I would have thought any fans that could possibly think of any way of getting their hands on any sort of memorabilia (let alone the bloody films of the thing) would've been swarming all over this sort of thing, getting their grubby mitts on it and having some of the best possible mementoes imaginable. That's the thing that keeps the optimist in me thinking that, never mind, these 2 or 6 or 9 MEs that PV and PM know, surely some opportunists should have had all of them sitting at home. It's like when Richard is talking about the USB sticks in the office - I've got visions of the BBC workers of the day talking to their mates down their pub. "We've been told just to bin off all these cans of film, got no space for them. Stuff like Doctor Who, Steptoe and Son, Z Cars." "Really? When you doing that? I know some people who'd probably pay money for that, I'll take them off your hands." But then I wasn't around in those days, have no real idea what happened (other than the BBC junked them all), the logistics of it, etc. I've kind of deliberately kept my head in the sand about all that, almost purposefully kept my fingers in my ears singing "la la la" so that I can keep imagining that some day some one is going to pass on and their widow is going to say, "Oh by the way, he pilfered all these when the BBC binned them off". Sometimes it's great living in fantasy land. (But, seriously, imagine a production company binning off anything to do with a moderately successful TV show these days. Whatever it was, it wouldn't be out the office doors 5 minutes before it was on eBay!) |
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Post by Richard Bignell on Jul 4, 2023 19:10:17 GMT
Including the fake Evil of the Daleks one. Shrink wrapped? That's just the clear adhesive around the barcode. The barcode has nothing to do with shipping. It's the internal reference number of the can at BBC Archives, where the picture was taken. |
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Post by John Wall on Jul 4, 2023 19:13:54 GMT
The biggest problem is office moves. I’ve been through it and you end up with less space - to save money. Consequently, all the things that had been kept “just in case” get binned. I can remember going through “inherited” filing cabinets that hadn’t been looked in for about 25 years - the contents just went. TV stations are the same - TV Centre was built to be a conveyor belt of umpteen shows recorded on 2” VT in multicamera stufios. That’s all history now. Were any MEs found when TV Centre was vacated? Or were any old film cans found in the bottom of desk drawers just binned as that was the easiest option? How many TV stations are still in the same building(s) they were in in, say, 1973 when they might have had some 16mm DW? Remember when PM got into that “store” in Jos that probably hadn’t been touched for 40+ years. That could happen in somewhere in Nigeria. Could it happen in London, Sydney, Hong Kong, Singapore, etc! There's one thing that I've always found confusing, having been born at a time (just) that videotapes were a thing and watching and rewatching TV was a thing, and TV shows being popular was a thing and "fans" were a thing (which presumably was the case back in the 60s and 70s - hence the show still existing, and annuals and the films and whatnot)... How did any of it get destroyed at all? Unless nobody who had any interest in Doctor Who had any inkling of what was going on, I would have thought any fans that could possibly think of any way of getting their hands on any sort of memorabilia (let alone the bloody films of the thing) would've been swarming all over this sort of thing, getting their grubby mitts on it and having some of the best possible mementoes imaginable. That's the thing that keeps the optimist in me thinking that, never mind, these 2 or 6 or 9 MEs that PV and PM know, surely some opportunists should have had all of them sitting at home. It's like when Richard is talking about the USB sticks in the office - I've got visions of the BBC workers of the day talking to their mates down their pub. "We've been told just to bin off all these cans of film, got no space for them. Stuff like Doctor Who, Steptoe and Son, Z Cars." "Really? When you doing that? I know some people who'd probably pay money for that, I'll take them off your hands." But then I wasn't around in those days, have no real idea what happened (other than the BBC junked them all), the logistics of it, etc. I've kind of deliberately kept my head in the sand about all that, almost purposefully kept my fingers in my ears singing "la la la" so that I can keep imagining that some day some one is going to pass on and their widow is going to say, "Oh by the way, he pilfered all these when the BBC binned them off". Sometimes it's great living in fantasy land. (But, seriously, imagine a production company binning off anything to do with a moderately successful TV show these days. Whatever it was, it wouldn't be out the office doors 5 minutes before it was on eBay!) Nobody started looking until Ian Levine and Sue Malden. iirc Ian got in there in 1978 after the damage had been done. Five years earlier….. |
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Post by awpeacock on Jul 4, 2023 19:22:23 GMT
There's one thing that I've always found confusing, having been born at a time (just) that videotapes were a thing and watching and rewatching TV was a thing, and TV shows being popular was a thing and "fans" were a thing (which presumably was the case back in the 60s and 70s - hence the show still existing, and annuals and the films and whatnot)... How did any of it get destroyed at all? Unless nobody who had any interest in Doctor Who had any inkling of what was going on, I would have thought any fans that could possibly think of any way of getting their hands on any sort of memorabilia (let alone the bloody films of the thing) would've been swarming all over this sort of thing, getting their grubby mitts on it and having some of the best possible mementoes imaginable. That's the thing that keeps the optimist in me thinking that, never mind, these 2 or 6 or 9 MEs that PV and PM know, surely some opportunists should have had all of them sitting at home. It's like when Richard is talking about the USB sticks in the office - I've got visions of the BBC workers of the day talking to their mates down their pub. "We've been told just to bin off all these cans of film, got no space for them. Stuff like Doctor Who, Steptoe and Son, Z Cars." "Really? When you doing that? I know some people who'd probably pay money for that, I'll take them off your hands." But then I wasn't around in those days, have no real idea what happened (other than the BBC junked them all), the logistics of it, etc. I've kind of deliberately kept my head in the sand about all that, almost purposefully kept my fingers in my ears singing "la la la" so that I can keep imagining that some day some one is going to pass on and their widow is going to say, "Oh by the way, he pilfered all these when the BBC binned them off". Sometimes it's great living in fantasy land. (But, seriously, imagine a production company binning off anything to do with a moderately successful TV show these days. Whatever it was, it wouldn't be out the office doors 5 minutes before it was on eBay!) Nobody started looking until Ian Levine and Sue Malden. iirc Ian got in there in 1978 after the damage had been done. Five years earlier….. So the BBC did it. Without announcing it. And literally nobody working within the BBC involved knew anybody who was vaguely interested in any of the shows to say anything to? It really was a different world back then. |
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Post by Richard Bignell on Jul 4, 2023 19:35:55 GMT
Nobody started looking until Ian Levine and Sue Malden. iirc Ian got in there in 1978 after the damage had been done. Five years earlier….. So the BBC did it. Without announcing it. And literally nobody working within the BBC involved knew anybody who was vaguely interested in any of the shows to say anything to? It really was a different world back then. The BBC wiped the master videotapes all the time. It was accepted practice. Productions didn't own them, they effectively just rented them for a period of time from the Engineering department before they went back into circulation or had to be replaced. As Barry Letts himself said, once they had been broadcast (and bar the odd compilation repeat), they didn't much care what happened to them as repeats were extremely limited on the channels and they were always focused on what was to come, not what had been. The BBC Enterprises sales prints were kept as long as they held the rights to sell them and broadcasters wanted to keep buying them. Once those opportunities were exhausted, they were of no lasting value to them. They couldn't just give them away. |
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Post by billardery on Jul 4, 2023 20:15:55 GMT
Including the fake Evil of the Daleks one. I've seen that picture of the (alleged) Evil 2 film can several times at this point. I'm assuming that's the one that's fake. I'm just curious, do you know how the image originated?
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Post by Richard Bignell on Jul 4, 2023 20:21:45 GMT
Including the fake Evil of the Daleks one. I've seen that picture of the (alleged) Evil 2 film can several times at this point. I'm assuming that's the one that's fake. I'm just curious, do you know how the image originated? What's in the can is quite real - Episode 2 of The Evil of the Daleks. However, owner Gordon Hendry got some colour reproductions of BBC film can labels made for his own amusement so that can looked more authentic. The labels on there are the ones he put on and the handwriting is Gordon's. |
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Post by John Wall on Jul 4, 2023 21:37:17 GMT
So the BBC did it. Without announcing it. And literally nobody working within the BBC involved knew anybody who was vaguely interested in any of the shows to say anything to? It really was a different world back then. The BBC wiped the master videotapes all the time. It was accepted practice. Productions didn't own them, they effectively just rented them for a period of time from the Engineering department before they went back into circulation or had to be replaced. As Barry Letts himself said, once they had been broadcast (and bar the odd compilation repeat), they didn't much care what happened to them as repeats were extremely limited on the channels and they were always focused on what was to come, not what had been. The BBC Enterprises sales prints were kept as long as they held the rights to sell them and broadcasters wanted to keep buying them. Once those opportunities were exhausted, they were of no lasting value to them. They couldn't just give them away. I was around at the time and repeats of many things were as rare as hen’s teeth. I missed the first episode of Genesis, I don’t recall when I actually saw it. The same with the first part of Blakes 7 - I might have first seen that when it was released on VHS. |
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Richard Develyn
Member
The Cloister Bell is ringing Bong! Bong! The Doctor needs to save us from Climate Change and WW3!
Posts: 587
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Post by Richard Develyn on Jul 4, 2023 22:51:43 GMT
Nobody started looking until Ian Levine and Sue Malden. iirc Ian got in there in 1978 after the damage had been done. Five years earlier….. So the BBC did it. Without announcing it. And literally nobody working within the BBC involved knew anybody who was vaguely interested in any of the shows to say anything to? It really was a different world back then. I remember talking to an old friend of mine called Terry Reason (who, as you may know, actually took a few photos from the TV of Evil of the Daleks which eventually appeared in DWM, pre-telesnap-days) and he told me how TV in the 60s was almost viewed as theatre. No one expected to see the stuff again. And then, of course, we have the unions to think about and how they reacted to the concept of repeats when they first started happening. I think they sort of panicked, a little bit like how we're getting worried now about AI-reconstructed actors such as Peter Cushing in Rogue One. They thought actors would lose their livelyhoods, so they fought against them. Additionally, culturally speaking, I think TV was considered low-brow and not worth keeping on that score either. That suggests to me that the prevailing attitude at the time would have been one of - they're not that important, no one is expecting them to be shown again, and we probably couldn't even if we wanted to. So all in all, the odds were stacked against their survival. Richard |
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