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Post by awpeacock on Jul 1, 2023 14:06:34 GMT
I must admit I'm somewhat surprised to hear all the cans in the BBC Archive and BFI that are labelled as containing 1960s Doctor Who hadn't all been physically checked. Is that still the case? I may be misremembering, but weren't some of the Daleks' Master Plan clips previously found to be mislabeled as being from a different episode? With such large collections, mistakes in records can easily be made. That's my thinking from this. Does a full audit of what we think we have need to be undertaken just to be sure we don't have any hidden treasures? I would also just like to reiterate what John Wall said though - been watching a lot of other old stuff recently and some of the quality has been shocking to the point of making watching it difficult (for an example, try watching any film from the 50s-80s on Prime). The efforts of some people to give us what we have should never be underestimated or underappreciated. We are truly lucky. |
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Post by George D on Jul 1, 2023 14:23:23 GMT
One thought is that possibly the bbc fully checked their archive but maybe bfi hasn't?
Good thing there was insight to give to bfi rather than destroy believed dupes. It definitely became useful.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 2, 2023 11:32:12 GMT
One thought is that possibly the bbc fully checked their archive but maybe bfi hasn't? Good thing there was insight to give to bfi rather than destroy believed dupes. It definitely became useful. But isn't the BFI's archive massive? It has programs from all of the UK and could take months to check and scan all their prints. If they do find some missing episodes, that would be great. |
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John Wall
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Post by John Wall on Jul 2, 2023 14:45:16 GMT
The number of cans where the label doesn't match the contents is reducing all the time.
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Post by andyparting on Jul 2, 2023 15:20:48 GMT
The number of cans where the label doesn't match the contents is reducing all the time. Wonder what became of the film from the Fury of the Deep can? And where was this film can from? Singapore? Attachment Deleted |
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Post by Paul Vanezis on Jul 2, 2023 15:39:10 GMT
The number of cans where the label doesn't match the contents is reducing all the time. Wonder what became of the film from the Fury of the Deep can? And where was this film can from? Singapore? View AttachmentThere was an episode of 'The Ice Warriors' in it. But we don't think those four films were returns from abroad. We think they are the Enterprises telerecording editors copies. Except they have no cuts to them. My belief is that the missing episodes 2 & 3 weren't there because they had cuts made to them. Therefore, the films would have been sent to the negative cutter so that any changes made to the print could be made to the negative. Paul |
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Post by Tim Burrows on Jul 2, 2023 15:51:04 GMT
That’s interesting!
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Post by andyparting on Jul 2, 2023 16:45:51 GMT
It gives me hope then, that the Singapore films as yet remain unaccounted for!  |
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Post by andyparting on Jul 2, 2023 16:48:09 GMT
But what does the note "join in noth reels" mean?
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Post by Jon Preddle on Jul 2, 2023 20:40:39 GMT
There was an episode of 'The Ice Warriors' in it. But we don't think those four films were returns from abroad. We think they are the Enterprises telerecording editors copies. Except they have no cuts to them. My belief is that the missing episodes 2 & 3 weren't there because they had cuts made to them. Paul What would have been cut? The BBC's recorded running times of eps 2 and 3 are 24'10 and 23'58. The running times of those two episodes according to the ABC Australia were 24'10 (the same) and 24'01 (three seconds longer). The film print of ep 2 assessed in NZ was 24'08 (two seconds short). Surely if Enterprises had made cuts to their master film negs, both the Australian and NZ running times would be considerably different? |
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Post by Ralph Rose on Jul 2, 2023 21:07:43 GMT
There was an episode of 'The Ice Warriors' in it. But we don't think those four films were returns from abroad. We think they are the Enterprises telerecording editors copies. Except they have no cuts to them. My belief is that the missing episodes 2 & 3 weren't there because they had cuts made to them. Paul What would have been cut? The BBC's recorded running times of eps 2 and 3 are 24'10 and 23'58. The running times of those two episodes according to the ABC Australia were 24'10 (the same) and 24'01 (three seconds longer). The film print of ep 2 assessed in NZ was 24'08 (two seconds short). Surely if Enterprises had made cuts to their master film negs, both the Australian and NZ running times would be considerably different? Is it possible that eps 2 and 3 were edited for another purpose? Like for clips for a edition of Blue Peter or something like that? They didn't have to be cut for foreign sales if I understand this correctly. |
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Post by Paul Vanezis on Jul 2, 2023 23:06:16 GMT
There was an episode of 'The Ice Warriors' in it. But we don't think those four films were returns from abroad. We think they are the Enterprises telerecording editors copies. Except they have no cuts to them. My belief is that the missing episodes 2 & 3 weren't there because they had cuts made to them. Paul What would have been cut? The BBC's recorded running times of eps 2 and 3 are 24'10 and 23'58. The running times of those two episodes according to the ABC Australia were 24'10 (the same) and 24'01 (three seconds longer). The film print of ep 2 assessed in NZ was 24'08 (two seconds short). Surely if Enterprises had made cuts to their master film negs, both the Australian and NZ running times would be considerably different? If your durations are correct Jon, those timings wouldn't account for meaningful cuts... except of course you're forgetting what the purpose was for these telerecording edit prints. They were for the editor to review and assess, then make cuts to things such as videotape off-locks on the film recordings. And sometimes those changes would be quite minor, just a few frames. I don't think that any timing changes would be considerably different. Of course, we know that timings made by PA's on stopwatches is often not an accurate measure. An example is the discrepancy in timings between the broadcast version of 'The Escape', episode 3 of The Daleks and the surviving film recording. The 1967 film recording is shorter. However, I believe that the duration of the version screened in either Australia or New Zealand matches the original BBC broadcast. That version would have been from the 1963/4 suppressed field negative. We found that negative in the BFI archive and recently had it scanned and guess what? It matches the 1967 film recording exactly. The shortened section in the cliffhanger has exactly the same cut. Of course, without doing a physical examination of both negatives, we won't know if the cut was present on the original videotape, meaning that the timing of the UK TX is incorrect, or whether the cut is a telerecording cut, meaning that the AUS/NZ TX timing is incorrect. What I have been able to gather though is that the money conscious BBC Enterprises didn't want to have to go to the trouble of making new sound negatives when they re-did the film recordings in 1967. Soundtracks were shared, so the 1967 negatives were cut to match the 1963/4 versions so that the 1963/4 sound negs could be used with the better quality stored field pictures. Paul |
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Post by Paul Vanezis on Jul 2, 2023 23:08:03 GMT
Is it possible that eps 2 and 3 were edited for another purpose? Like for clips for a edition of Blue Peter or something like that? They didn't have to be cut for foreign sales if I understand this correctly. No Ralph. These were Enterprises prints, not BBC (public service) prints. Paul |
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Post by Ralph Rose on Jul 3, 2023 5:14:25 GMT
Is it possible that eps 2 and 3 were edited for another purpose? Like for clips for a edition of Blue Peter or something like that? They didn't have to be cut for foreign sales if I understand this correctly. No Ralph. These were Enterprises prints, not BBC (public service) prints. Paul Ah, thanks for the distinction. Very interesting. |
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Richard Develyn
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Post by Richard Develyn on Jul 3, 2023 8:30:35 GMT
Wonder what became of the film from the Fury of the Deep can? And where was this film can from? Singapore? View AttachmentThere was an episode of 'The Ice Warriors' in it. But we don't think those four films were returns from abroad. We think they are the Enterprises telerecording editors copies. Except they have no cuts to them. My belief is that the missing episodes 2 & 3 weren't there because they had cuts made to them. Therefore, the films would have been sent to the negative cutter so that any changes made to the print could be made to the negative. Paul Hi Paul, Were telerecording editor copies made for every episode? Typically what would have happened to these? Richard |
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