How much money would they like?

[jarrodcook]

We're told there are perhaps 6 missing episodes in the hands of private collectors. We're also lead to believe that the BBC probably aren't going to pay these collectors any money just to rescue an orphan episode.

I get it, if I were a collector I'd probably be thinking "I risked my job 50 years ago to steal this out of a dumpster, looked after it since then and the BBC aren't even to compensate me at all, screw them, I'm not giving it back".

My question then is, how much could fans donate together to pay for any episodes back?

I suggest the following:
PV, PM & Levine start something like a go fund me. They negotiate with collectors as to what a fair amount would be and try and raise it, or they raise whatever they can and just offer that amount. I'm unsure exactly how many of us would donate but if such a fund were started I'd donate the first $10. I'm sure there'd be at least 1000 other fans who'd be happy enough to donate that. I would like to think a financial reward in the $1,000-$10,000 range would be enticing enough for some collectors.

If I personally donated $10 I'd be pretty impressed with with any finds I could get from that, even if it was just some low quality damaged copy of The Highlanders episode 3. We have to be grateful of anything new at this point.

Perhaps have a clause that if the money sits in the go fund me for more than 5 years and no collectors bite then it gets distributed to a variety of worthy charities.

[stevehoare61]

I suggested something like this some time ago. I was shot down in flames. Hopefully this barren ten years may have changed peoples views as we are all , especially we older, original viewers getting on and some have already left us. We are running out of time. I would be happy to contribute to some form of fund to help liberate missing episodes, but sadly with some collectors, even Money is not enough of an incentive. It can be obsessional.

[mattg]

…I’m not sure it’s actually possible to steal anything from a ‘dumpster’ but still! 

Regardless, the crowd funding angle has inevitably been proposed before, not least by myself on this very forum (I was somewhat more ambivalent to it at the time however) and elicits some very ‘robust’ opinions unsurprisingly. Though a complex, divisive issue the broad consensus is clear: the majority are vehemently opposed to remuneration for the return of missing material. Not least because it would be a policy fraught with too many obvious pitfalls to be viable.

Indeed, what if a collector known/rumoured for owning a missing episode actually has more - the existence of the rest hitherto unknown? He could hypothetically sell what purportedly was his only copy before sensationally announcing further episodes for sale… only at double or treble the price of the first! What’s to stop another collector from simply outbidding any crowd funding effort with a private offer? What monetary values should one ascribe to missing ‘Who, i.e. is the third episode of, say, The Massacre ‘worth’ as much as the fourth episode of Power of the Daleks? Etc, etc. These are all legitimate questions to which there are no easy answers. Nevertheless the fact remains that ‘officially’ paying collectors would set a number of dangerous, irreversible precedents…

One must also consider that the slightest whiff of ‘cash for cans’ would draw out the usual gaggle of fantasists, attention seekers and scammers from the shadows like it’s 2013-2015 again too. Needless to say their bs would only impede and/or imperil potential negotiations.

Infuriating as it is then the ‘slippery slope’ argument against paying for missing material remains a sound one and suffice to say that once that Pandora’s Box has been opened it can never be closed. Therefore material not currently held in official archives must always be returned for gratis. No exceptions.

[John Wall]

It’s worth remembering a few things.

The first is the separation between the physical medium and the content.

Anyone can own the former but Auntie owns the intellectual property.

So, the physical medium can be sold, traded, etc but if, for example, someone digitised the print and sold DVD copies or charged for people to attend a showing of the print they’d probably be breaking the law.

In the past people have had prints, and sometimes they weren’t aware that the content wasn’t in an official archive, that they’ve lent for digitising and which have ended up on official DVDs, BluRays, etc. That was their choice.

If they’re not prepared to lend, or even donate, a print that’s also their choice.

In order to lend, or donate, a print there has to be title to it.

I can’t see a fundamental reason why an individual, or consortium, shouldn’t seek to acquire title to a physical medium, i.e., a print, that contains the intellectual property of a DW ME in order to lend, or donate, it to the BBC so that it can be made available to the public. This, of course, assumes that the owner is willing to sell.

Beyond that there are lots of potential problems with fraudsters, etc, etc.

[Mark Tinkler]

For some collectors, it's not about money. It's theirs and they want to keep it. Rather like Golum and a certain ring...

[John Wall]

Jan 21, 2023 12:59:59 GMT Mark Tinkler said:

For some collectors, it's not about money. It's theirs and they want to keep it. Rather like Golum and a certain ring...

Absolutely.

If you’re pretty well off and had a print - possibly the only one in existence - of TP4 or WoF3 you probably wouldn’t be interested in 💰💰💰

[josephsenior]

Crowdfunding does not make sense at all. Whomever has any missing episodes is a collector, they like rare stuff and will only deal in it. Ian Levine knew this and this is why he kept prints of episodes to himself in order to trade them for rarer things. It is likely we'll probably not see anything but you know what we'll wait and see.

[John Wall]

Jan 21, 2023 14:46:32 GMT josephsenior said:

Crowdfunding does not make sense at all. Whomever has any missing episodes is a collector, they like rare stuff and will only deal in it. Ian Levine knew this and this is why he kept prints of episodes to himself in order to trade them for rarer things. It is likely we'll probably not see anything but you know what we'll wait and see.

I’m inclined to agree, the “pension pot” scenario doesn’t really appeal. If you’re investing a lump sum you can reckon on being able to take c. 3-4% sustainably per annum. Invest £10k and you could get £400 per annum.

Alternatively, you could put the print on EBay……

[andyparting]

I would have thought offering money could be potentially damaging to any trust gained within the film collector community, and be the complete opposite approach of discretion and long term negotiation. I wouldn't go there. No quick fix.

Myself, I think by virtue of these 6 missing episodes having been mentioned online means that they are already in good hands, and this info is now being made known after the fact of securing them? I can't see how ME hunters could highlight it online, if they hoped to get them back through confidential and discrete means. Surely broadcasting this knowledge would be ruin any chances of a recovery? Weren't we told in 2013 that the 9 missing episodes were recovered from Jos circa 2012, and then it turned out they were actually found much earlier?

[John Wall]

Jan 21, 2023 17:08:06 GMT andyparting said:

I would have thought offering money could be potentially damaging to any trust gained within the film collector community, and be the complete opposite approach of discretion and long term negotiation. I wouldn't go there. No quick fix.

Myself, I think by virtue of these 6 missing episodes having been mentioned online means that they are already in good hands, and this info is now being made known after the fact of securing them? I can't see how ME hunters could highlight it online, if they hoped to get them back through confidential and discrete means. Surely broadcasting this knowledge would be ruin any chances of a recovery? Weren't we told in 2013 that the 9 missing episodes were recovered from Jos circa 2012, and then it turned out they were actually found much earlier?

Well, you’re probably looking at having to go via a trusted intermediary who’s verified that the print is actually a DW ME.

But, it’s unlikely that you’d know, up front, what you’re contributing towards; it could be TP4, an episode of Masterplan or Evil - or an episode of the Massacre or Smugglers. Virtually everything would have to be kept quiet until PV, PM, etc turned up at MBW brandishing a print - or two, which would be a double brandish 🥃🥃

And this assumes that we’re not in a City of Death scenario…..

[anthonybartley]

I mentioned this in another thread - but here we go again...

If the BBC wilfully destroyed these episodes by junking them - then they don't actually own the copyright for those episodes anymore. The do own the copyright for the Dr. Who brand, etc - but not the junked episode. They even have a paper trail proving their abandonment of the episodes, so I'd say it's a pretty open and shut case (if it ever went to court)

However, what to do with 1 episode of a story? Not much is my best guess.

I'd also lean towards this story being put out there to entice others - and may not actually be true.

If 6 episodes are genuinely out there in the wild, why have we not seen one single frame from any of these prints? I think that says it all (and I remain most sceptical)

Barring another miracle (like Africa) I don't think any more episodes will ever be retrieved and I suspect the rest are all in landfill somewhere dotted around the place. It's now less about the hunt and more about being grateful for what has been rescued (imho)

[Mark Tinkler]

Jan 23, 2023 9:31:30 GMT anthonybartley said:

If the BBC wilfully destroyed these episodes by junking them - then they don't actually own the copyright for those episodes anymore. The do own the copyright for the Dr. Who brand, etc - but not the junked episode. They even have a paper trail proving their abandonment of the episodes, so I'd say it's a pretty open and shut case (if it ever went to court)

Sorry Antony, copyright law doesn't work like that. The BBC do own the copyright in the programmes, never mind all the 3rd party rights such as the writers, actors, composers etc. The programmes were copyrighted when they transmitted (or published as is the more legal term) and that stays in place no matter what happens to the master tapes.

[Richard Bignell]

Jan 23, 2023 9:31:30 GMT anthonybartley said:

I mentioned this in another thread - but here we go again...

If the BBC wilfully destroyed these episodes by junking them - then they don't actually own the copyright for those episodes anymore. The do own the copyright for the Dr. Who brand, etc - but not the junked episode. They even have a paper trail proving their abandonment of the episodes, so I'd say it's a pretty open and shut case (if it ever went to court)

That's total and utter nonsense, Anthony.

They may have disposed of the storage medium, but that doesn't in any way affect the copyright of the contents.

[RWels]

Anyway old movies that are PD are generally released many times in mediocre quality by companies out for easy gains, with no-one prepared to invest in actual restauration. So copyright ownership not necessarily a bad thing.

[Richard Develyn]

Jan 23, 2023 9:31:30 GMT anthonybartley said:

Barring another miracle (like Africa) I don't think any more episodes will ever be retrieved and I suspect the rest are all in landfill somewhere dotted around the place. It's now less about the hunt and more about being grateful for what has been rescued (imho)

That was exactly the situation we were in before the miracle happened.

Richard