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Post by Ray Langstone (was saintsray) on Nov 29, 2021 22:21:58 GMT
I just noticed since I just posted my Iliad to Irrelevance above that several previous comments by other posters on non-DW subjects have been removed, which makes my first comment seem a little weird.
(shrugs)
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Post by Ralph Rose on Nov 29, 2021 23:14:23 GMT
I know the majority of countries have been searched, but I feel the US is your best bet, just because of the size, common language, and the plethora of libraries, TV station, colleges, archives, film dealers, collectors.... the whole shebang. Irrespective of how many sales were made over there, I see how many other non-DW missing programmes have come from there over the years - some of them not even shown in the US- and.... I wouldn't be amazed if something was found there. Several TOTP clips have turned up in the US over the years, it was never even shown there during the 'Wiped Years'. Back in the day, a huge amount of the best Beatles bootlegs came out of the US. DW has a large following in the US, as you know. I agree. What are the odds of some film collector in the UK to import his/her collection to the USA? Also, I've discovered in the UCLA (University of California - Los Angeles) online database 16mm copies of "The Computer Program", and "The Day The Universe Changed". I have also seen digital clips of these, but the 16mm prints were recorded at 25fps, and digitized at 24fps, so they are slow. Why I find this significant is that these Prints had to be made in circa 1985 or later. Assumably these were made for classrooms etc... It suggests that others with film movie rentals in Africa, as example, might have done something similar, with more rare material?
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Post by Robert Lia on Nov 29, 2021 23:35:19 GMT
As some one who has moved around the world do to US Navy requirements I can say that would not be that hard to include 16mm films in your pack out when you clear out your house. I personal pack out from the the Republic of the Philippines in 1990 all of the Dr. Who video tapes I had purchased and imported as well as all the Target paperbacks I had bout as well as Dr. Who Magazine and DWB (fanzine). I also took my multi standard VHS and TVs with me.
So shipping a film print from the United Kingdom to the United States would not be an issue. Now as to the cost of this all the US Navy paid to move my Dr. Who collection from the South Pacific back to the USA. But it can be done.
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Post by Nicholas Fitzpatrick on Nov 30, 2021 5:55:30 GMT
Should it perhaps be locked? Perhaps we should just ban members who don't know when to STFU. Or at least make multiple consecutive posts without anyone else posting. Or use more than 20 words discussing hypotheticals.
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Post by fredjones1 on Nov 30, 2021 12:01:08 GMT
Should it perhaps be locked? Perhaps we should just ban members who don't know when to STFU. Or at least make multiple consecutive posts without anyone else posting. Or use more than 20 words discussing hypotheticals. I'm not sure if that was aimed at me but in case it is, it is worth mentioning that (and this part but not the next section is admittedly offtopic) 1) This is off topic and the discussion finished over a week ago. 2) This is a hypothetical situation and the question pertains to a hypothetical outcome. Admittedly things got sidetracked but some issues arose which were important out of that discussion. In particular, it might appear that there is an agreement that stating negative things about countries which may have missing material and indeed being negative with respect to the potential to discover missing material are not necessarily the best ideas. This is the point I was making. And indeed this would appear to be confirmed by the recent discovery of negatives in the BFI library pertaining to Doctor Who. 3) It is perhaps the case that you have overlooked the fact that I came onto the forum to mention the fact that I had a lead which I have not as yet discussed with anyone and to ask for advice in that respect. I have also mentioned the fact that there is a method by which the universal media archive might be recovered as well as the fact that it would be possible perhaps to release material belonging to certain archives for which paperwork is missing and which prevents a release. Moreover, I have discussed the possibility of restoring material myself. Does banning people under such circumstances taking into consideration the second point and telling them to STFU seem reasonable? So I would hope that we could move on. A general rule as to what might be out there
Going back on topic, as regards what might be out there, to state the obvious, we don't know. That being said, there might be some rules however which I hope prove helpful and which perhaps might be obvious It would seem reasonable to suggest that with respect to archives/stores, there is a rule to the effect that the richer and more organised a country is, the more likely it is that it has been searched or to have made available such material which it might possess. As such, and people can correct me if I am wrong, it will be less likely that countries such as Australia, New Zealand, Canada, the United Kingdom and the United states will possess such material which is missing. As a consequence any discoveries will be more likely occur in "developing" countries. Conversely however, with regards to collectors, the reverse would seem to be applicable given that the richer a country is the more collectors there will be. Again this is a rule for which there will be exceptions and feel free to correct me if you think I am wrong.
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Post by chrissouth on Jan 9, 2022 7:39:50 GMT
As such, and people can correct me if I am wrong, it will be less likely that countries such as Australia, New Zealand, Canada, the United Kingdom and the United states will possess such material which is missing. As a consequence any discoveries will be more likely occur in "developing" countries. I can't say with any authority, although I had briefly worked with a colleague last year who spent some years working for the National Archives here in Australia, and we spent some time talking about the ABC one day. She was adamant that there were rooms of material that stank of vinegar and were uncatalogued, due to the lack of staff and funding. I know Paul and others have visited the ABC, although I'm not sure whether this situation (if indeed true) is something ABC management would readily admit or not (presuming there was shared knowledge of this within the organisation). I was toying with the idea of volunteering to travel to Sydney and assist in cataloguing, and she didn't think it was such a crazy idea although wasn't sure about the policies and procedures required to do so. I'm not suggesting for a moment there are huge swathes of Doctor Who or any other missing TV programs sitting around, just that priorities being what they are even some of the richer countries don't always place enough value on cultural heritage, particularly in times when the ABC and other arts organisations are severely cash strapped. What this means I'm not sure, although I still feel there are gaps in terms of knowing how many prints the ABC struck for domestic distribution, and whether these were considered ABC rather than BBC property in terms of not including them in returns. If the ABC sent copies back to the UK, how would we know and track this today? I think there are gaps here worth exploring, even though information and access is lacking.
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Post by John Wall on Jan 9, 2022 9:13:18 GMT
As such, and people can correct me if I am wrong, it will be less likely that countries such as Australia, New Zealand, Canada, the United Kingdom and the United states will possess such material which is missing. As a consequence any discoveries will be more likely occur in "developing" countries. I can't say with any authority, although I had briefly worked colleague last year who spent some years working for the National Archives here in Australia, and we spent some time talking about the ABC one day. She was adamant that there were rooms of material that stank of vinegar and were uncatalogued, due to the lack of staff and funding. I know Paul and others have visited the ABC, although I'm not sure whether this situation (if indeed true) is something ABC management would readily admit or not (presuming there was shared knowledge of this within the organisation). I was toying with the idea of volunteering to travel to Sydney and assist in cataloguing, and she didn't think it was such a crazy idea although wasn't sure about the policies and procedures required to do so. I'm not suggesting for a moment there are huge swathes of Doctor Who or any other missing TV programs sitting around, just that priorities being what they are even some of the richer countries don't always place enough value on cultural heritage, particularly in times when the ABC and other arts organisations are severely cash strapped. What this means I'm not sure, although I still feel there are gaps in terms of knowing how many prints the ABC struck for domestic distribution, and whether these were considered ABC rather than BBC property in terms of not including them in returns. If the ABC sent copies back to the UK, how would we know and track this today? I think there are gaps here worth exploring, even though information and access is lacking. We have the broadcast dates for Australia and it’s clear that these were staggered to allow for bicycling of prints. It’s possible there were some Aussie dupes but very few. There are surviving records for prints returned from Australia and we know that some of these were “liberated” from the destruction pile in London. There may be ME prints in Australia but at most a very small number.
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Post by chrissouth on Jan 12, 2022 0:22:58 GMT
We have the broadcast dates for Australia and it’s clear that these were staggered to allow for bicycling of prints. It’s possible there were some Aussie dupes but very few. There are surviving records for prints returned from Australia and we know that some of these were “liberated” from the destruction pile in London. There may be ME prints in Australia but at most a very small number. Thank for the reply John. I've been meaning to collate and crunch broadcast data myself, given the number of repeats for some of the B&W stories. Perhaps this would be a futile exercise based on existing analysis?
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Post by John Wall on Jan 12, 2022 0:45:13 GMT
The data is all here broadwcast.org/index.php/AustraliaPM thinks there may be some MEs in Australia, and it’s possible that the odd print was “liberated” from the destruction pile, although it’s not a high probability. We know that some of the surviving prints were returned from Australia for destruction and my view is that there may be a few more. There are almost certainly MEs out there - but I doubt anything on the scale of what PM found at Jos will ever be repeated.
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Post by chrissouth on Jan 12, 2022 6:20:04 GMT
The site is a great overview, but detailed data is missing, unless you're referring to the Google links, where some of the newspaper listings are less than helpful and only apply to a single state (eg: Sydney). See example below for a Jan 6, 1970 listing from the Sydney Morning Herald.
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Post by Nicholas Fitzpatrick on Jan 12, 2022 8:25:54 GMT
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Post by Jon Preddle on Jan 12, 2022 9:34:08 GMT
All the Australia pages in BroaDWcast are being revised. I have a lot more detail and info to add, and some errors to correct.
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Post by chrissouth on Jan 12, 2022 9:36:21 GMT
Thanks! Thought I'd seen it before. Those multi-screenings are so interesting, as are those selected 71/72 Troughton screenings, particularly the ones in Darwin. Oh, and I made an error earlier suggesting it was the ABC. I looked back at my notes and my friend was definitely referring to the National Archives in Sydney. Not sure if the ABC offloaded loads of imported material to NA.
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Post by John Wall on Jan 12, 2022 12:25:43 GMT
Thanks! Thought I'd seen it before. Those multi-screenings are so interesting, as are those selected 71/72 Troughton screenings, particularly the ones in Darwin. Oh, and I made an error earlier suggesting it was the ABC. I looked back at my notes and my friend was definitely referring to the National Archives in Sydney. Not sure if the ABC offloaded loads of imported material to NA. Remember that a lot of prints from Australia were returned to the UK. Unless JP’s new info is a major spanner in the works it looks like ABC were sent one print per episode which they then bicycled around Australia before returning them to London.
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Post by odysseaschristou on Jan 28, 2022 13:53:44 GMT
Wasn’t sure if or where to post this, but as the guidelines refer to not posting about TIEA and PM (if I have got this wrong Paul V apologies), I thought this may be of interest. It was a post on Digital Spy today.
Craig Cabell posted an update on Facebook, re: his claim of missing episode in the Middle East. Previously he mentioned Marco Polo 1 & 2 existing thusly, but he doesn't mention those this time:
For the past two years I have been tracking missing episodes in the Middle East. These are episodes (whole stories) that were sent to Japan, New Zealand and Australia, or passed on to there and disappeared. There was evidence that New Zealand and Japan forwarded the stories on to the Middle East in 1967 and again in the early 70s. The stories I ear-marked as ‘listed, possibly sent to the Middle East’ included 17 stories from the first 5 seasons of Doctor Who. I provided dates of ‘acceptance’ to the broadcasting agency and have learnt today that ‘files exist’ corresponding with the dates I gave. Files meaning digital copies of at least ‘some’ of those stories. That is all the good news. The bad news is: they don’t want to sell as they consider the batch of stories as an asset of importance. Further investigations into this ‘importance’ suggests that their treasure acts as a bargaining tool politically, not financially. Money was offered and rejected. So what happens next? I need to allow my in-country agent to have a meeting with the director of the company holding the material to see what can be done. I need to re-engage with the BBC who have not come back to me yet, and now I have official confirmation of the existance of missing episodes, I need to engage with British official sources again and see what pressure can be applied. I suspect that Western pressure will only make the trail go cold, so I must concentrate on the in-country angle listening to Western advice. The meeting with the Director is likely to be in six weeks time, nothing goes quickly in the Middle East, but now we know material has been located we can try and find out what exactly it is. That also could be a very tricky things to do. Indeed, their naivety could mean they’ve only located stuff we already have. I don’t know, but I believe them when they say they have material from my list and corresponding dates.
I promised an update when I had it and this is it. I urge everyone to remain calm because at the moment nothing will be returned. We are dealing with delicate negotiations now and any publicity could ruin the whole thing. If that happens I will close this page. I am being transparent because effectively this post is a non news item because the answer is No, but you must realise the mindset and suspicion that has nothing to do with a TV programme, but a lot to do with political stability. I will only now provide a further update when I know what is there or I am closed down from further investigations. So, please, at the moment there is nothing to get excited about. There’s a hard road ahead. Fans have always wanted to know the background to an investigation and you now know, so please be sensible and sit tight, I am as anxious as you to find out what happens next, so let us enjoy the journey. End of update.
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