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Post by John Wall on Oct 15, 2021 22:31:44 GMT
There is always a criminal element around but how does that help us? Oh, I don't know... It could help us find lost episodes...? Someone could have seen Fawlty Towers a bit later but still on film. As said before, it's not missing so why should we care about that example in particular. You give me the impression that you think it's ludicrous and absurd and fit for the realm of fantasy only. I personally think it might have happened because people wouldn't all suddenly own TV sets and video recorders in 1975. I don't doubt that with the passage of time, the projection circuit must have died out, and people turned to watching tape based copies at home on their TV sets. The dates argue against Fawlty Towers on film. I think it’s unlikely that it was ever telerecorded - the burden of proof is on those who believe it was - so it relies on someone accessing the 2” videotape and being able to use telerecording equipment to be able to produce a 16mm version. That’s not impossible, but is extremely unlikely. We’re talking about fairly well off people in SA who’d probably be early adopters of TV - and also home video. If a flow of low generation bootleg video copies from the UK was available that’d drive an increase in those with home video. Looking back it was the availability of content that enabled VHS to prevail over Betamax and V2000 so I’d expect the numbers with home video to have increased, even if 16mm equipment was available.
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Post by John Wall on Oct 15, 2021 22:46:51 GMT
Honestly, I have not kept track. I judge case by case. Plus, before you open that bottle, well, are we? Because there are examples of people making things up for no apparent reason. And of people who genuinely are mistaken or who've completely unintentionally falsified their own memories. The human brain is sadly not infallible. On the other hand, "Pertwee wasn't fully telerecorded" seems like "what also floats in water" logic - how would that affect a black market supply chain geared towards 16mm projection in a far away country? Too late, bottle opened. And of course you are right really, who’s keeping count. 😉😎. Yeah, I know the memory cheats from personal experience but I like to give folks who are sure about something they witnessed the benefit of the doubt, they were there, we weren’t. I still feel that SA might be a possible source for missing material. Without doubt an industry existed for creating multiple copies of 16mm reels for home film rental use, along with copies made of British Television programs for illicit screenings in cinemas and this was happening from the 60’s till the mid 70’s, so you would think something must survive somewhere. Difficult to know where to start though due to the cultural issues. BTW, he’s adamant he saw Faulty Towers in the mid 70’s in SA on film & I believe him. If it was pirated, the source for the films could surely have been from video via illicit telerecording. As I said before, there was an overlap with this industry & the start of TV in SA. Faulty Towers was just one example he gave of BBC programming shown this way. I’m sure I could ask him for some other titles but would there be any point? So it’s now “mid 70s” for Fawlty Towers on film - is it still before the start of TV in SA? Why not go with the obvious explanation, that it was a bootleg video some time in the second half of the 1970s?
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Post by brianfretwell on Oct 16, 2021 8:20:47 GMT
I'm sure that 16mm copies of TV shows were being made in colour for airline showings. There are many copies of Muppet Show episodes in film collectors/dealers hands and that started in 1976.
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Post by John Wall on Oct 16, 2021 8:28:38 GMT
I'm sure that 16mm copies of TV shows were being made in colour for airline showings. There are many copies of Muppet Show episodes in film collectors/dealers hands and that started in 1976. I believe there were a few colour telerecordings but video overtook it. Was the Muppet Show made on film or video? Remember that anything specifically intended for overseas sales was usually made on film, it avoided potential 525/625 line issues.
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Post by Mark Tinkler on Oct 16, 2021 8:35:09 GMT
Muppet Show was made on tape but tele-recordings made for sales I believe.
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Post by richardwoods on Oct 16, 2021 12:09:01 GMT
Too late, bottle opened. And of course you are right really, who’s keeping count. 😉😎. Yeah, I know the memory cheats from personal experience but I like to give folks who are sure about something they witnessed the benefit of the doubt, they were there, we weren’t. I still feel that SA might be a possible source for missing material. Without doubt an industry existed for creating multiple copies of 16mm reels for home film rental use, along with copies made of British Television programs for illicit screenings in cinemas and this was happening from the 60’s till the mid 70’s, so you would think something must survive somewhere. Difficult to know where to start though due to the cultural issues. BTW, he’s adamant he saw Faulty Towers in the mid 70’s in SA on film & I believe him. If it was pirated, the source for the films could surely have been from video via illicit telerecording. As I said before, there was an overlap with this industry & the start of TV in SA. Faulty Towers was just one example he gave of BBC programming shown this way. I’m sure I could ask him for some other titles but would there be any point? So it’s now “mid 70s” for Fawlty Towers on film - is it still before the start of TV in SA? Why not go with the obvious explanation, that it was a bootleg video some time in the second half of the 1970s? There you go, the memory does cheat. Fawlty Towers wasn’t mentioned by my friend but the independent film guy in SA. Apologies on my part but it does lend it some credence don’t you think? Subject: RE: Fwd: Historic Cinemas in South Africa Hi Richard Thank you for your email. I was involved in the cinema industry in South Africa for some 40 years, starting in the ealy 1960s. As far as I know British television programmes were not shown in South African cinemas at any stage. We did show most of the British-made full length movies such as the 'Carry On' series which were extremely popular. Also the 'Doctor' series with Dirk Bogarde, the movie of 'On The Buses', etc. British television programmes such as 'Fawlty Towers', 'Man In the House' were popular as rental items from 16mm rental shops and later, when television was introduced in 1975, some of them were screened by the South African Broadcasting Corporation. However, there was a cultural boycot in force during those years (Equity ban) and most of the BBC programmes were not available to South African audiences. With the advancement of technology, video cassettes took over and 16mm films died out completely. Your chances of finding the old 16mm material is virtually zero unless some of it survives in private collections. Good luck! Best regards John Ferreira
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Post by richardwoods on Oct 16, 2021 12:25:43 GMT
Here’s his original email. Looks like I merged the two in my head.
Sorry I've taken a while to get back to you.
Yes, I do remember watching British TV at the local bughouses, things like Candid Camera, The Sweeney, The Persauders, The Saint etc.
We never had cinema chains then, but independent cinemas, like His Majesty's, The Empire, The Cinerama, The Coloseum, The 20th Century, The Rialto, The Roxy, & many, many more including all the drive-in cinemas . We only got movie chains in the '80's like SterCity etc..
You could Google : " Springbok Radio archives " & also find out more about all the British radio plays & comedies like: " The Men From The Ministry "etc.
I hope this can help you ?.Lemme know what you find.
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Post by richardwoods on Oct 16, 2021 13:24:43 GMT
A search in South Africa would be a unique situation as TV started so late on and IMHO should focus on finding film collectors probably among the former minority ruling class. It will not be easy as emotions still run high about those times. John Ferrrara the cinema guy got quite upset when I asked him how to best contact film collectors as it could be mistaken taken for nostalgia for the apartheid years.
It would be interesting to find out what happened to film stock from the old independent cinemas. Probably again in land fill long ago.
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RWels
Member
Posts: 2,862
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Post by RWels on Oct 16, 2021 18:18:51 GMT
So it’s now “mid 70s” for Fawlty Towers on film - is it still before the start of TV in SA? Why not go with the obvious explanation, that it was a bootleg video some time in the second half of the 1970s? Dates don't argue anything - people do. Or rather, you do, because frankly, no-one gives a damn, it was just an example. Late for film, early for video. Nobody cares. But isn't it better to say, that we can't be 100% certain, than to claim to know this kind of thing for sure, when none of us were there? Aha! See this post. So at least one did exist!
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Post by John Wall on Oct 16, 2021 18:48:05 GMT
So it’s now “mid 70s” for Fawlty Towers on film - is it still before the start of TV in SA? Why not go with the obvious explanation, that it was a bootleg video some time in the second half of the 1970s? There you go, the memory does cheat. Fawlty Towers wasn’t mentioned by my friend but the independent film guy in SA. Apologies on my part but it does lend it some credence don’t you think? Subject: RE: Fwd: Historic Cinemas in South Africa Hi Richard Thank you for your email. I was involved in the cinema industry in South Africa for some 40 years, starting in the ealy 1960s. As far as I know British television programmes were not shown in South African cinemas at any stage. We did show most of the British-made full length movies such as the 'Carry On' series which were extremely popular. Also the 'Doctor' series with Dirk Bogarde, the movie of 'On The Buses', etc. British television programmes such as 'Fawlty Towers', 'Man In the House' were popular as rental items from 16mm rental shops and later, when television was introduced in 1975, some of them were screened by the South African Broadcasting Corporation. However, there was a cultural boycot in force during those years (Equity ban) and most of the BBC programmes were not available to South African audiences. With the advancement of technology, video cassettes took over and 16mm films died out completely. Your chances of finding the old 16mm material is virtually zero unless some of it survives in private collections. Good luck! Best regards John Ferreira This proves my point about memories. “Man in the House” has to be “Man about the House” which dates from 1973 and, like Fawlty Towers, was a video tape series. Was it ever telerecorded for foreign sales? As I’ve previously pointed out Fawlty Towers was first broadcast in the UK in September 1975 and is unlikely to have been telerecorded. When someone can’t even get the programme name correct it casts doubt on their ability to accurately recall things. I’d lay good money that neither of these series were, as he claims, available “from 16mm rental shops”. I rest my case.
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RWels
Member
Posts: 2,862
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Post by RWels on Oct 16, 2021 19:15:34 GMT
There you go, the memory does cheat. Fawlty Towers wasn’t mentioned by my friend but the independent film guy in SA. Apologies on my part but it does lend it some credence don’t you think? Subject: RE: Fwd: Historic Cinemas in South Africa Hi Richard Thank you for your email. I was involved in the cinema industry in South Africa for some 40 years, starting in the ealy 1960s. As far as I know British television programmes were not shown in South African cinemas at any stage. We did show most of the British-made full length movies such as the 'Carry On' series which were extremely popular. Also the 'Doctor' series with Dirk Bogarde, the movie of 'On The Buses', etc. British television programmes such as 'Fawlty Towers', 'Man In the House' were popular as rental items from 16mm rental shops and later, when television was introduced in 1975, some of them were screened by the South African Broadcasting Corporation. However, there was a cultural boycot in force during those years (Equity ban) and most of the BBC programmes were not available to South African audiences. With the advancement of technology, video cassettes took over and 16mm films died out completely. Your chances of finding the old 16mm material is virtually zero unless some of it survives in private collections. Good luck! Best regards John Ferreira This proves my point about memories. “Man in the House” has to be “Man about the House” which dates from 1973 and, like Fawlty Towers, was a video tape series. Was it ever telerecorded for foreign sales? As I’ve previously pointed out Fawlty Towers was first broadcast in the UK in September 1975 and is unlikely to have been telerecorded. When someone can’t even get the programme name correct it casts doubt on their ability to accurately recall things. I’d lay good money that neither of these series were, as he claims, available “from 16mm rental shops”. I rest my case. Actually he doesn't claim that - he says programmes like those examples. Crucial difference - he's speaking in general. Why would this source, AND the completely different witness that I quoted earlier, BOTH be lying about something that isn't all that important to them? Anyway, based on the link in my previous comment, I believe that you now owe me money.
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Post by John Wall on Oct 16, 2021 20:07:38 GMT
This proves my point about memories. “Man in the House” has to be “Man about the House” which dates from 1973 and, like Fawlty Towers, was a video tape series. Was it ever telerecorded for foreign sales? As I’ve previously pointed out Fawlty Towers was first broadcast in the UK in September 1975 and is unlikely to have been telerecorded. When someone can’t even get the programme name correct it casts doubt on their ability to accurately recall things. I’d lay good money that neither of these series were, as he claims, available “from 16mm rental shops”. I rest my case. Actually he doesn't claim that - he says programmes like those examples. Crucial difference - he's speaking in general. Why would this source, AND the completely different witness that I quoted earlier, BOTH be lying about something that isn't all that important to them? Anyway, based on the link in my previous comment, I believe that you now owe me money. Examples are provided to substantiate things and give credence. If I was to talk about, say, teams in the Premier League I’d give examples such as Manchester United and Arsenal. If I said Bristol City and Notts County I’d have little credibility. Here we’ve got a claim that British TV programmes were available to rent on 16mm before TV started in 1975. Although there were some broadcasts in 1975 the “real” start was January 1976. Two examples were given, the name of one was incorrect, both were videotape series and one was only first broadcast in the UK a matter of weeks before TV went nationwide in 1976. We’ve already had an admission of getting emails nixed up and when we get the actual text there’s errors and inconsistencies. Both shows may well have been seen in SA, but on TV in colour from a 2” videotape after January 1976. A bootleg video copy is also a possibility. There’s plenty to show that it’s just things getting mixed up.
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Post by John Wall on Oct 16, 2021 20:13:50 GMT
So it’s now “mid 70s” for Fawlty Towers on film - is it still before the start of TV in SA? Why not go with the obvious explanation, that it was a bootleg video some time in the second half of the 1970s? Dates don't argue anything - people do. Or rather, you do, because frankly, no-one gives a damn, it was just an example. Late for film, early for video. Nobody cares. But isn't it better to say, that we can't be 100% certain, than to claim to know this kind of thing for sure, when none of us were there? Aha! See this post. So at least one did exist! So a film print of one episode of Fawlty Towers existed. That’s interesting, but it would have been made no earlier than the very end of 1975 - and nationwide TV in SA started in January 1976.
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Post by John Wall on Oct 16, 2021 20:15:24 GMT
Muppet Show was made on tape but tele-recordings made for sales I believe. It was certainly made for an international audience so they’d have thought the technicalities through.
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Post by John Wall on Oct 16, 2021 20:24:55 GMT
Here’s his original email. Looks like I merged the two in my head. Sorry I've taken a while to get back to you. Yes, I do remember watching British TV at the local bughouses, things like Candid Camera, The Sweeney, The Persauders, The Saint etc. We never had cinema chains then, but independent cinemas, like His Majesty's, The Empire, The Cinerama, The Coloseum, The 20th Century, The Rialto, The Roxy, & many, many more including all the drive-in cinemas . We only got movie chains in the '80's like SterCity etc.. You could Google : " Springbok Radio archives " & also find out more about all the British radio plays & comedies like: " The Men From The Ministry "etc. I hope this can help you ?.Lemme know what you find. The original Candid Camera was American so it’s possible that version was seen. The other three are, of course, film series so there would’ve been prints around. It must be noted that the Sweeney only started being broadcast in the UK in January 1975 so may well have actually been seen on TV after January 1976 but “moved back” in the memory. All we’re getting here is repeated proof of how unreliable the human memory can be.
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