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Post by Jon Preddle on Oct 16, 2021 20:38:56 GMT
Dates don't argue anything - people do. Or rather, you do, because frankly, no-one gives a damn, it was just an example. Late for film, early for video. Nobody cares. But isn't it better to say, that we can't be 100% certain, than to claim to know this kind of thing for sure, when none of us were there? Aha! See this post. So at least one did exist! So a film print of one episode of Fawlty Towers existed. That’s interesting, but it would have been made no earlier than the very end of 1975 - and nationwide TV in SA started in January 1976. A 16mm F/R of Fawlty Towers would have been made as an audition print - possibly for Australia. We know that the ABC in Australia was still getting programmes on films to audition in 75/76, but they pretty much told the BBC to only send them VTs around that time. FT started on the ABC in early 1977, two years after colour was launched.
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Post by John Wall on Oct 16, 2021 21:09:18 GMT
So a film print of one episode of Fawlty Towers existed. That’s interesting, but it would have been made no earlier than the very end of 1975 - and nationwide TV in SA started in January 1976. A 16mm F/R of Fawlty Towers would have been made as an audition print - possibly for Australia. We know that the ABC in Australia was still getting programmes on films to audition in 75/76, but they pretty much told the BBC to only send them VTs around that time. FT started on the ABC in early 1977, two years after colour was launched. Thanks 👍 What we’ve seen here is that British TV programmes were probably seen in SA before TV started. The Saint and the Persuaders were film series made for an international audience so getting hold of them wouldn’t have been too difficult - borrow a print and make a negative that could be used to strike more prints. There’s nothing implausible in that. These may well have been rented out in SA before TV started. We then get to memory tricks. British TV programmes were seen on film before TV started. After TV started British programmes were shown - either legally or bootleg videos. It’s very easy to transpose British TV seen on a TV to British TV seen as a 16mm print.
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Post by richardwoods on Oct 16, 2021 22:25:23 GMT
I really think you are writing this off too easily John, we have three independent sources saying that presumably illegally sourced UK TV programs were available as film rentals for home use from a large number of film rental shops in SA, I’m assuming from the early 60’s till some point in the 70’s when widespread arrival of TV & later video put them out of business.
Even assuming that BBC programs weren’t available, which I personally believe is not fully the case at least, (my view, that’s all), what about missing ITV stuff from the 60’s for example? Due to the large numbers of copies made, isn’t this a potentially good avenue for investigation if it hasn’t been looked into thoroughly including on the ground before?
Go back 10 years on the forum and there was a definite feeling often expressed by some individuals that TV stations had been “checked” for their holdings & didn’t have missing material. Presumably administratively, by letter, telex, fax or phone? Along came Philip Morris & everything changed along with some attitudes on here, well at least I thought so.
Yes, we are all fallible, to err is human, and I have already apologised for mixing up details between two emails I published on the same subject in a thread some years ago, I’m always happy to put my hand up if I’ve quoted something incorrectly or made a mistake as I hope I’ve shown here. It’s worth pointing out however that the factual content of the emails remains the same and it doesn’t make this any less worthy of investigation IMHO.
Let’s hope Philip Morris is reading this thread & if he hasn’t considered SA as having potential, he at least looks into it due to the sheer numbers of film copies made to supply the film rental businesses.
I do like to believe people’s memories as a starting point on this sort of investigation, like Neil & The Macra showing at the sports day in NZ. Memories can be flawed as we all know but in my experience there is usually a core of truth in there. To just dismiss things like this completely is just rude in my book & more worryingly might put off folks coming forward with useful leads in future.
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Post by John Wall on Oct 16, 2021 23:08:34 GMT
I really think you are writing this off too easily John, we have three independent sources saying that presumably illegally sourced UK TV programs were available as film rentals for home use from a large number of film rental shops in SA, I’m assuming from the early 60’s till some point in the 70’s when widespread arrival of TV & later video put them out of business. Even assuming that BBC programs weren’t available, which I personally believe is not fully the case at least, (my view, that’s all), what about missing ITV stuff from the 60’s for example? Due to the large numbers of copies made, isn’t this a potentially good avenue for investigation if it hasn’t been looked into thoroughly including on the ground before? Go back 10 years on the forum and there was a definite feeling often expressed by some individuals that TV stations had been “checked” for their holdings & didn’t have missing material. Presumably administratively, by letter, telex, fax or phone? Along came Philip Morris & everything changed along with some attitudes on here, well at least I thought so. Yes, we are all fallible, to err is human, and I have already apologised for mixing up details between two emails I published on the same subject in a thread some years ago, I’m always happy to put my hand up if I’ve quoted something incorrectly or made a mistake as I hope I’ve shown here. It’s worth pointing out however that the factual content of the emails remains the same and it doesn’t make this any less worthy of investigation IMHO. Let’s hope Philip Morris is reading this thread & if he hasn’t considered SA as having potential, he at least looks into it due to the sheer numbers of film copies made to supply the film rental businesses. I do like to believe people’s memories as a starting point on this sort of investigation, like Neil & The Macra showing at the sports day in NZ. Memories can be flawed as we all know but in my experience there is usually a core of truth in there. To just dismiss things like this completely is just rude in my book & more worryingly might put off folks coming forward with useful leads in future. And you haven’t read what I wrote. There’s nothing difficult in contemplating widely sold British film TV series such as the Saint or Persuaders being rented out on 16mm before TV started - the timescales and ability to get prints all work. However, it’s also clear that in the memories of some, British videotape TV series shown after TV started have been transposed to an earlier era - the inconsistency in the accounts such as getting names wrong and implausible dates substantiate that.
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Post by Neil Lambess on Oct 17, 2021 3:08:43 GMT
Shades here of our friend in New Zealand being told that he couldn’t possibly have been seen The Macra Terror. He said that he was there and he said he saw it. That’s good enough for me. The same applies here. Would rather believe eye witnesses than folks trying to apply the benefit of hindsight who weren’t in the country at the time. If you don’t respect that, why would I read everything about the alleged viewing of Macra Terror in New Zealand and it was an impressive piece of research. However, the likelihood of “borrowing” prints is extremely small - possibly the best explanation is that it was a reasonably recent horror film that featured giant crabs that someone later confused with the Macra Terror. It’s a bit like the alleged broadcast of the Savages which was probably Monster of Peladon. Sorry John ...I DEFINATLY saw Macra (I was even dissapointed that it was one I had already seen ) When David Creighton did his excellent research (along with Jon )they did discover some stuff that hasn't been shared publicly ...To the extent that we know the collectors name,( provided by other witnesses who mentioned his Doctor Who prints) his criminal convictions, and that the trail went cold in Wanganui after his death. In the 90s I contacted a friend of a friend who used to work at NZBC /TVNZ who in the 1970s would occasionally borrow stuff from work and bring it up to my friends place and screen it at his house. (I was there) When I contacted him in the 90s he told me how the stuff went walkies and how some of it was "written off" simply by writing destroyed in the relevant programme logs . All highly illegal but money was made by a few employees of the channel.(including the person telling me this!!!) He knew of a collector in Masterson who liked science fiction shows including Who , Ootu, And the usual American SF shows ( but specifically didn't want historical episodes of Who ).....this last bit is particularly interesting as he probably at one time owned the 16mm film print of "the Lion" and abandoned it ..(ironically I eventually tracked that one down in Auckland in 1999...after been told there couldn't possibly be a print of it in NZ as it hadn't screened here !).... I can't prove conclusively that he owned it but as the Lion was kept in storage in a farm shed in Masterton alongside many other film prints (the shed containing some of their owners collection ) and as Masterton was where I saw Macra and where both I and it's probable owner lived there's a interesting probability they could have been owned by the same person Adding to my speculation the person storing the films in the shed was only a friend of the actual films owner and after the prints were abandoned ( ... around the same time the school teacher was in jail ) he decided to sell them /give them away to a local film collector Larry Duggan .who eventually on sold the Lion in 1998 . Sadly we all missed the boat here in NZ as Larry Duggan was concerned and his collection was on sold and some of it dumped after his death ....so we don't know what else was in the Masterton shed or what the collector took to Wanganui. Anyway ...I do get a little bit disheartened (no offense) when people suggest I saw something like "attack of the crab monsters " instead of what I know I saw !... and if you still think I'm mistaken the print I saw at the school started with a" world around us" 5 minute short featuring speedboats and ice sculpture in Japan -including thunderbird 2 ) then doctor who started and I'm pretty sure it was ep 3 ..... funnily enough a couple of years ago Jon Preddle discovered that ep 3 of Macra screened with a "world around us " short before hand ....the only episode of Macra to do so in NZ....... Nevermind I'm still looking for it ...I won't be surprised if the film print just has "world around us " written on it ...IF ...and it's a big if . It's managed to survive
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Post by John Wall on Oct 17, 2021 8:30:00 GMT
Sorry John ...I DEFINATLY saw Macra (I was even dissapointed that it was one I had already seen ) When David Creighton did his excellent research (along with Jon )they did discover some stuff that hasn't been shared publicly ...To the extent that we know the collectors name,( provided by other witnesses who mentioned his Doctor Who prints) his criminal convictions, and that the trail went cold in Wanganui after his death. In the 90s I contacted a friend of a friend who used to work at NZBC /TVNZ who in the 1970s would occasionally borrow stuff from work and bring it up to my friends place and screen it at his house. (I was there) When I contacted him in the 90s he told me how the stuff went walkies and how some of it was "written off" simply by writing destroyed in the relevant programme logs . All highly illegal but money was made by a few employees of the channel.(including the person telling me this!!!) He knew of a collector in Masterson who liked science fiction shows including Who , Ootu, And the usual American SF shows ( but specifically didn't want historical episodes of Who ).....this last bit is particularly interesting as he probably at one time owned the 16mm film print of "the Lion" and abandoned it ..(ironically I eventually tracked that one down in Auckland in 1999...after been told there couldn't possibly be a print of it in NZ as it hadn't screened here !).... I can't prove conclusively that he owned it but as the Lion was kept in storage in a farm shed in Masterton alongside many other film prints (the shed containing some of their owners collection ) and as Masterton was where I saw Macra and where both I and it's probable owner lived there's a interesting probability they could have been owned by the same person Adding to my speculation the person storing the films in the shed was only a friend of the actual films owner and after the prints were abandoned ( ... around the same time the school teacher was in jail ) he decided to sell them /give them away to a local film collector Larry Duggan .who eventually on sold the Lion in 1998 . Sadly we all missed the boat here in NZ as Larry Duggan was concerned and his collection was on sold and some of it dumped after his death ....so we don't know what else was in the Masterton shed or what the collector took to Wanganui. Anyway ...I do get a little bit disheartened (no offense) when people suggest I saw something like "attack of the crab monsters " instead of what I know I saw !... and if you still think I'm mistaken the print I saw at the school started with a" world around us" 5 minute short featuring speedboats and ice sculpture in Japan -including thunderbird 2 ) then doctor who started and I'm pretty sure it was ep 3 ..... funnily enough a couple of years ago Jon Preddle discovered that ep 3 of Macra screened with a "world around us " short before hand ....the only episode of Macra to do so in NZ....... Nevermind I'm still looking for it ...I won't be surprised if the film print just has "world around us " written on it ...IF ...and it's a big if . It's managed to survive There’s, unfortunately, been a lot posted that clearly demonstrates just how fallible the human memory is. By all means follow up reports - but “remember” how many people “saw” Autons crashing through a shop window.
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Post by richardwoods on Oct 17, 2021 11:03:23 GMT
Sorry John ...I DEFINATLY saw Macra (I was even dissapointed that it was one I had already seen ) When David Creighton did his excellent research (along with Jon )they did discover some stuff that hasn't been shared publicly ...To the extent that we know the collectors name,( provided by other witnesses who mentioned his Doctor Who prints) his criminal convictions, and that the trail went cold in Wanganui after his death. In the 90s I contacted a friend of a friend who used to work at NZBC /TVNZ who in the 1970s would occasionally borrow stuff from work and bring it up to my friends place and screen it at his house. (I was there) When I contacted him in the 90s he told me how the stuff went walkies and how some of it was "written off" simply by writing destroyed in the relevant programme logs . All highly illegal but money was made by a few employees of the channel.(including the person telling me this!!!) He knew of a collector in Masterson who liked science fiction shows including Who , Ootu, And the usual American SF shows ( but specifically didn't want historical episodes of Who ).....this last bit is particularly interesting as he probably at one time owned the 16mm film print of "the Lion" and abandoned it ..(ironically I eventually tracked that one down in Auckland in 1999...after been told there couldn't possibly be a print of it in NZ as it hadn't screened here !).... I can't prove conclusively that he owned it but as the Lion was kept in storage in a farm shed in Masterton alongside many other film prints (the shed containing some of their owners collection ) and as Masterton was where I saw Macra and where both I and it's probable owner lived there's a interesting probability they could have been owned by the same person Adding to my speculation the person storing the films in the shed was only a friend of the actual films owner and after the prints were abandoned ( ... around the same time the school teacher was in jail ) he decided to sell them /give them away to a local film collector Larry Duggan .who eventually on sold the Lion in 1998 . Sadly we all missed the boat here in NZ as Larry Duggan was concerned and his collection was on sold and some of it dumped after his death ....so we don't know what else was in the Masterton shed or what the collector took to Wanganui. Anyway ...I do get a little bit disheartened (no offense) when people suggest I saw something like "attack of the crab monsters " instead of what I know I saw !... and if you still think I'm mistaken the print I saw at the school started with a" world around us" 5 minute short featuring speedboats and ice sculpture in Japan -including thunderbird 2 ) then doctor who started and I'm pretty sure it was ep 3 ..... funnily enough a couple of years ago Jon Preddle discovered that ep 3 of Macra screened with a "world around us " short before hand ....the only episode of Macra to do so in NZ....... Nevermind I'm still looking for it ...I won't be surprised if the film print just has "world around us " written on it ...IF ...and it's a big if . It's managed to survive Thanks for that Neil. Great to get a progress report. Let’s hope the trail warms up again!
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RWels
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Post by RWels on Oct 17, 2021 18:02:14 GMT
Dates don't argue anything - people do. Or rather, you do, because frankly, no-one gives a damn, it was just an example. Late for film, early for video. Nobody cares. But isn't it better to say, that we can't be 100% certain, than to claim to know this kind of thing for sure, when none of us were there? Aha! See this post. So at least one did exist! So a film print of one episode of Fawlty Towers existed. That’s interesting, but it would have been made no earlier than the very end of 1975 - and nationwide TV in SA started in January 1976. I certainly don't think any copies were around before it had been made, no. Things (not just tv programs but also items in general and pretty much everything with a physical manifestation) usually don't exist until they do. Before that time, they're always noticeably absent. So far I got the impression that these film libraries were the solution not just to the late start of television there, but also to the boycot. Come 01-01-1976, would they immediately pack it in? And this is again a point that I've made before, that line of business probably slowly died over the next few years after that.
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Post by richardwoods on Oct 17, 2021 18:44:26 GMT
So a film print of one episode of Fawlty Towers existed. That’s interesting, but it would have been made no earlier than the very end of 1975 - and nationwide TV in SA started in January 1976. I certainly don't think any copies were around before it had been made, no. Things (not just tv programs but also items in general and pretty much everything with a physical manifestation) usually don't exist until they do. Before that time, they're always noticeably absent. So far I got the impression that these film libraries were the solution not just to the late start of television there, but also to the boycot. Come 01-01-1976, would they immediately pack it in? And this is again a point that I've made before, that line of business probably slowly died over the next few years after that. Exactly
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Post by John Wall on Oct 17, 2021 18:49:47 GMT
So a film print of one episode of Fawlty Towers existed. That’s interesting, but it would have been made no earlier than the very end of 1975 - and nationwide TV in SA started in January 1976. I certainly don't think any copies were around before it had been made, no. Things (not just tv programs but also items in general and pretty much everything with a physical manifestation) usually don't exist until they do. Before that time, they're always noticeably absent. So far I got the impression that these film libraries were the solution not just to the late start of television there, but also to the boycot. Come 01-01-1976, would they immediately pack it in? And this is again a point that I've made before, that line of business probably slowly died over the next few years after that. Jon Preddle reckons the Fawlty Towers telerecording was made as an audition copy for Australia. I don’t know how long 16mm in SA survived after TV started. However, home video was getting under way and as I’ve previously identified bootleg copies of off air UK recordings would’ve been very easy. It was probably about that time that bootleg copies of DW started making their way from Australia to the UK.
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RWels
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Post by RWels on Jan 17, 2022 21:25:23 GMT
Recently someone told me he watched The Sweeney in South Afrika. And it was dubbed in Afrikaans!
That must mean there was even more of an industry going on than "just" knocking off 'dupes'.
I already asked him if he remembered when the tide turned in favour of video tape. If I hear anything more definite, I'll keep this thread posted.
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Post by John Wall on Jan 17, 2022 21:41:18 GMT
Recently someone told me he watched The Sweeney in South Afrika. And it was dubbed in Afrikaans! That must mean there was even more of an industry going on than "just" knocking off 'dupes'. I already asked him if he remembered when the tide turned in favour of video tape. If I hear anything more definite, I'll keep this thread posted. Another film series - that started in January 1975, a year before TVSA started. However, there’s nothing implausible in dubbed versions of things being produced. Considering how late SA got TV 16mm must’ve been very significant which could well make dubbing viable.
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RWels
Member
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Post by RWels on Jan 17, 2022 22:34:31 GMT
Recently someone told me he watched The Sweeney in South Afrika. And it was dubbed in Afrikaans! That must mean there was even more of an industry going on than "just" knocking off 'dupes'. I already asked him if he remembered when the tide turned in favour of video tape. If I hear anything more definite, I'll keep this thread posted. Another film series - that started in January 1975, a year before TVSA started. However, there’s nothing implausible in dubbed versions of things being produced. Considering how late SA got TV 16mm must’ve been very significant which could well make dubbing viable. Dubbing would otherwise have been viable for the television. But don't start all that again. Although, if you must know, my "witness" left South Africa in 1984 and by then the age of the film had passed and it was tape time.
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Post by John Wall on Jan 17, 2022 23:03:35 GMT
Another film series - that started in January 1975, a year before TVSA started. However, there’s nothing implausible in dubbed versions of things being produced. Considering how late SA got TV 16mm must’ve been very significant which could well make dubbing viable. Dubbing would otherwise have been viable for the television. But don't start all that again. Although, if you must know, my "witness" left South Africa in 1984 and by then the age of the film had passed and it was tape time. Things will happen if the demand is large enough.
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RWels
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Post by RWels on Jan 18, 2022 9:19:33 GMT
Things will happen if the demand is large enough. Really?? Wow I've never heard that before. Come to think of it, in some ways amateur dubbing might be EASIER (pre-digital) than subtitling.
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