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Post by richardwoods on Oct 15, 2021 9:31:24 GMT
Remember that things like DW and OOTU were but a very small part of a very large operation. It must’ve been a sight to behold, racks and racks of drawers full of cards. For something like OOTU there might have been a card for each print struck which would record its movements, etc, etc. Nowadays it’d all be on a computer. I imagine it all went into a skip decades ago - but had it survived…. To be honest, I was not entirely 100% serious when I said that. Even so, any system is just our attempt to capture reality. I've seen in a totally different place how systems get pretty close to a practical model, and then reality becomes more complicated again. E.g. if a foreign channel got one or two episodes as a sample, what then? That is how "Pit your wits" survived, but apparently not Marco Polo in Iran. And there are rumours of copies being made (speaking of TV in general here!) for South Africa. More than rumours, my friend watched them himself before TV launched in SA in 75. It’s just difficult to gauge the potential for survival of prints as it’s associated with apartheid & privilege etc, etc and, as I found out when trying to make enquires about film collectors, it’s still a very touchy subject.
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Post by richardwoods on Oct 15, 2021 9:33:04 GMT
To be honest, I was not entirely 100% serious when I said that. Even so, any system is just our attempt to capture reality. I've seen in a totally different place how systems get pretty close to a practical model, and then reality becomes more complicated again. E.g. if a foreign channel got one or two episodes as a sample, what then? That is how "Pit your wits" survived, but apparently not Marco Polo in Iran. And there are rumours of copies being made (speaking of TV in general here!) for South Africa. The system they had was used to manage and control the distribution of prints. Those over a certain age would have had experience of card indexs that is completely alien to younger folks. If it had survived we’d know exactly how many prints were struck and where they went. South Africa has been discussed before, I don’t think any unauthorised showing of BBC material has been substantiated. My friend watched Faulty Towers on film and I believe him, he has no reason to make it up.
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Post by richardwoods on Oct 15, 2021 9:34:12 GMT
It would seem that both BBC & ITV stuff was shown that way in SA.
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RWels
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Post by RWels on Oct 15, 2021 10:44:28 GMT
The system they had was used to manage and control the distribution of prints. Those over a certain age would have had experience of card indexs that is completely alien to younger folks. If it had survived we’d know exactly how many prints were struck and where they went. It doesn't matter, because it hasn't. And card indexes had their points of failure too. For example, they are hard to copy, which is perhaps why it's now gone. My remarks about the limits apply to both. Only, those younger folks have fancy databases that offer much more possibilities, but the human element remains. And if an ElectroMagnetic Pulse ever hits us, then we're back in the stone age, but until that time... Anyway, this is all off topic.
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Post by John Wall on Oct 15, 2021 12:01:57 GMT
The system they had was used to manage and control the distribution of prints. Those over a certain age would have had experience of card indexs that is completely alien to younger folks. If it had survived we’d know exactly how many prints were struck and where they went. South Africa has been discussed before, I don’t think any unauthorised showing of BBC material has been substantiated. My friend watched Faulty Towers on film and I believe him, he has no reason to make it up. Wasn’t it made on video with film inserts? Were telerecordings made of it?
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RWels
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Post by RWels on Oct 15, 2021 12:25:34 GMT
I find the idea that clandestine recordings were made for South Africa credible. At an early technological stage, maybe even using film. Not irrefutably proven, but, in my personal opinion, yes I can see that happening.
Nothing to do with OOTU, though.
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Post by John Wall on Oct 15, 2021 14:17:46 GMT
To be honest, I was not entirely 100% serious when I said that. Even so, any system is just our attempt to capture reality. I've seen in a totally different place how systems get pretty close to a practical model, and then reality becomes more complicated again. E.g. if a foreign channel got one or two episodes as a sample, what then? That is how "Pit your wits" survived, but apparently not Marco Polo in Iran. And there are rumours of copies being made (speaking of TV in general here!) for South Africa. More than rumours, my friend watched them himself before TV launched in SA in 75. It’s just difficult to gauge the potential for survival of prints as it’s associated with apartheid & privilege etc, etc and, as I found out when trying to make enquires about film collectors, it’s still a very touchy subject. Perhaps your friend had a convenient blue police box. The first broadcast of Fawlty Towers en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fawlty_Towers#Episodes was on 19 September 1975. TV in SA en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_African_Broadcasting_Corporation#Early_history_(1975–1995) started experimentally in 1975 but went nationwide in January 1976. I don’t believe the dates add up.
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RWels
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Post by RWels on Oct 15, 2021 14:29:43 GMT
More than rumours, my friend watched them himself before TV launched in SA in 75. It’s just difficult to gauge the potential for survival of prints as it’s associated with apartheid & privilege etc, etc and, as I found out when trying to make enquires about film collectors, it’s still a very touchy subject. Perhaps your friend had a convenient blue police box. The first broadcast of Fawlty Towers en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fawlty_Towers#Episodes was on 19 September 1975. TV in SA en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_African_Broadcasting_Corporation#Early_history_(1975–1995) started experimentally in 1975 but went nationwide in January 1976. I don’t believe the dates add up. That doesn't disprove anything except that 1975 is a bit early. You see, TV doesn't come into it at all. In fact, in a country without television, and otherwise somewhat isolated, there wouldn't be any umatic or N1500 video recorders to make use of. What would they even connect them to, input OR output-wise? So IF this black market existed, then it would have been done on 16mm film. In private clubs, or cinema's. And 16mm film technology existed, and indeed still exists, in private hands. It is NOT cheap, but then again, we are talking about the ruling class here. It is not disproven, or proven.
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Post by John Wall on Oct 15, 2021 15:15:29 GMT
That doesn't disprove anything except that 1975 is a bit early. You see, TV doesn't come into it at all. In fact, in a country without television, and otherwise somewhat isolated, there wouldn't be any umatic or N1500 video recorders to make use of. What would they even connect them to, input OR output-wise? So IF this black market existed, then it would have been done on 16mm film. In private clubs, or cinema's. And 16mm film technology existed, and indeed still exists, in private hands. It is NOT cheap, but then again, we are talking about the ruling class here. It is not disproven, or proven. We’ve been told that Fawlty Towers was shown on film in South Africa before TV started. Nothing in that is feasible. There were a matter of weeks between the first UK broadcasts of FT and nationwide TV in SA. FT would have been on 2 inch videotape which would have had to have been converted to a telerecording - I’m not sure if that ever happened, by the mid 70s broadcasters were converting to colour. What we’ve got is a mixed up story.
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Post by John Wall on Oct 15, 2021 15:56:48 GMT
Nationwide TV in SA started in January 1976. It was PAL colour. Home video was starting in the second half of the 70s. There are plenty of links between the UK and SA so videocassettes would have made their way in suitcases.
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Post by richardwoods on Oct 15, 2021 16:45:42 GMT
Not true I’m afraid. Despite TV starting in South Africa, the sale & distribution of television sets took some time & the availability of film copies for domestic use & the showing of UK television programs in small independent Cinemas continued for some time until things caught up. Were you living there at the time John? Trying to argue that someone who kindly permitted his recollections to be published on the forum (see the previous thread) to try & give leads on missing material is talking out of his hat is more than a little off I feel.
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RWels
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Post by RWels on Oct 15, 2021 17:34:45 GMT
That doesn't disprove anything except that 1975 is a bit early. You see, TV doesn't come into it at all. In fact, in a country without television, and otherwise somewhat isolated, there wouldn't be any umatic or N1500 video recorders to make use of. What would they even connect them to, input OR output-wise? So IF this black market existed, then it would have been done on 16mm film. In private clubs, or cinema's. And 16mm film technology existed, and indeed still exists, in private hands. It is NOT cheap, but then again, we are talking about the ruling class here. It is not disproven, or proven. We’ve been told that Fawlty Towers was shown on film in South Africa before TV started. Nothing in that is feasible. There were a matter of weeks between the first UK broadcasts of FT and nationwide TV in SA. FT would have been on 2 inch videotape which would have had to have been converted to a telerecording - I’m not sure if that ever happened, by the mid 70s broadcasters were converting to colour. What we’ve got is a mixed up story. Read my previous post. Again, it simply does not matter at all when TV started there. They had movie projectors. The only thing that can't be right is that Fawlty Towers would have made it there in 1975. That seems too early. Also, are you suggesting that telerecordings are always b/w? There are colour telerecordings too. But either way, something like that might have been done in a number of ways that did not require access to the master tapes. I guess it might even have been made off air in the UK; another option would be an inside job when it was shown in another African country. If I may say so, as with the card index, the reality isn't always exactly what the rule book says. Don't underestimate what might have being going on below the waterline and under the counter. Mind you, there is a weak link in the general idea, and that's the lack of evidence. I would have liked to see an episode recovered that way.
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Post by John Wall on Oct 15, 2021 19:15:34 GMT
Not true I’m afraid. Despite TV starting in South Africa, the sale & distribution of television sets took some time & the availability of film copies for domestic use & the showing of UK television programs in small independent Cinemas continued for some time until things caught up. Were you living there at the time John? Trying to argue that someone who kindly permitted his recollections to be published on the forum (see the previous thread) to try & give leads on missing material is talking out of his hat is more than a little off I feel. Fawlty Towers was first shown in the UK in September 1975 and, by then, telerecordings were on the way out, I don’t think all of Pertwee’s last season which finished being shown in June 1974 was telerecorded so it seems unlikely that Fawlty Towers, first broadcast over a year later, would’ve been telerecorded. Clearly a false memory.
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Post by richardwoods on Oct 15, 2021 19:28:02 GMT
Not true I’m afraid. Despite TV starting in South Africa, the sale & distribution of television sets took some time & the availability of film copies for domestic use & the showing of UK television programs in small independent Cinemas continued for some time until things caught up. Were you living there at the time John? Trying to argue that someone who kindly permitted his recollections to be published on the forum (see the previous thread) to try & give leads on missing material is talking out of his hat is more than a little off I feel. Fawlty Towers was first shown in the UK in September 1975 and, by then, telerecordings were on the way out, I don’t think all of Pertwee’s last season which finished being shown in June 1974 was telerecorded so it seems unlikely that Fawlty Towers, first broadcast over a year later, would’ve been telerecorded. Clearly a false memory. Shades here of our friend in New Zealand being told that he couldn’t possibly have been seen The Macra Terror. He said that he was there and he said he saw it. That’s good enough for me. The same applies here. Would rather believe eye witnesses than folks trying to apply the benefit of hindsight who weren’t in the country at the time. If you don’t respect that, why would folks want to share their memories & recollections on the forum?
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Post by richardwoods on Oct 15, 2021 19:29:28 GMT
We’ve been told that Fawlty Towers was shown on film in South Africa before TV started. Nothing in that is feasible. There were a matter of weeks between the first UK broadcasts of FT and nationwide TV in SA. FT would have been on 2 inch videotape which would have had to have been converted to a telerecording - I’m not sure if that ever happened, by the mid 70s broadcasters were converting to colour. What we’ve got is a mixed up story. Read my previous post. Again, it simply does not matter at all when TV started there. They had movie projectors. The only thing that can't be right is that Fawlty Towers would have made it there in 1975. That seems too early. Also, are you suggesting that telerecordings are always b/w? There are colour telerecordings too. But either way, something like that might have been done in a number of ways that did not require access to the master tapes. I guess it might even have been made off air in the UK; another option would be an inside job when it was shown in another African country. If I may say so, as with the card index, the reality isn't always exactly what the rule book says. Don't underestimate what might have being going on below the waterline and under the counter. Mind you, there is a weak link in the general idea, and that's the lack of evidence. I would have liked to see an episode recovered that way. Here’s a first, we are on the same side of an argument! I’m going to crack a bottle & raise a glass!
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