RWels
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Post by RWels on Oct 15, 2021 19:40:58 GMT
Here’s a first, we are on the same side of an argument! I’m going to crack a bottle & raise a glass! Honestly, I have not kept track. I judge case by case. Plus, before you open that bottle, well, are we? Because there are examples of people making things up for no apparent reason. And of people who genuinely are mistaken or who've completely unintentionally falsified their own memories. The human brain is sadly not infallible. On the other hand, "Pertwee wasn't fully telerecorded" seems like "what also floats in water" logic - how would that affect a black market supply chain geared towards 16mm projection in a far away country?
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Post by John Wall on Oct 15, 2021 19:41:07 GMT
We’ve been told that Fawlty Towers was shown on film in South Africa before TV started. Nothing in that is feasible. There were a matter of weeks between the first UK broadcasts of FT and nationwide TV in SA. FT would have been on 2 inch videotape which would have had to have been converted to a telerecording - I’m not sure if that ever happened, by the mid 70s broadcasters were converting to colour. What we’ve got is a mixed up story. Read my previous post. Again, it simply does not matter at all when TV started there. They had movie projectors. The only thing that can't be right is that Fawlty Towers would have made it there in 1975. That seems too early. Also, are you suggesting that telerecordings are always b/w? There are colour telerecordings too. But either way, something like that might have been done in a number of ways that did not require access to the master tapes. I guess it might even have been made off air in the UK; another option would be an inside job when it was shown in another African country. If I may say so, as with the card index, the reality isn't always exactly what the rule book says. Don't underestimate what might have being going on below the waterline and under the counter. Mind you, there is a weak link in the general idea, and that's the lack of evidence. I would have liked to see an episode recovered that way. The obvious explanation is that Fawlty Towers was seen after 1975 on a pirate video copy from the UK. Any other scenario requires a Watergate standard conspiracy.
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Post by John Wall on Oct 15, 2021 20:02:23 GMT
Fawlty Towers was first shown in the UK in September 1975 and, by then, telerecordings were on the way out, I don’t think all of Pertwee’s last season which finished being shown in June 1974 was telerecorded so it seems unlikely that Fawlty Towers, first broadcast over a year later, would’ve been telerecorded. Clearly a false memory. Shades here of our friend in New Zealand being told that he couldn’t possibly have been seen The Macra Terror. He said that he was there and he said he saw it. That’s good enough for me. The same applies here. Would rather believe eye witnesses than folks trying to apply the benefit of hindsight who weren’t in the country at the time. If you don’t respect that, why would folks want to share their memories & recollections on the forum? I’ve got a bridge to sell you….. Memory is a very dodgy thing, things like identity parades are notoriously unreliable, there are plenty of stories of “villains” being picked out who were actually policemen put in the line to make up the numbers. I read everything about the alleged viewing of Macra Terror in New Zealand and it was an impressive piece of research. However, the likelihood of “borrowing” prints is extremely small - possibly the best explanation is that it was a reasonably recent horror film that featured giant crabs that someone later confused with the Macra Terror. It’s a bit like the alleged broadcast of the Savages which was probably Monster of Peladon.
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RWels
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Posts: 2,857
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Post by RWels on Oct 15, 2021 20:02:26 GMT
The obvious explanation is that Fawlty Towers was seen after 1975 on a pirate video copy from the UK. Any other scenario requires a Watergate standard conspiracy. Why do you find it so hard to believe that film stock could also be pirated like any other medium? Making dupes on 16mm, what's so impossible about that? There were even a few people using 16mm for home movies, so availability wasn't the problem. Fawlty Towers would be a bit late, but isn't that would they would have done with earlier programs, in, say, 1970? For the third time: when there's money to be made, people smuggle and break the rules a bit. Nothing crazy about it. Sometimes not even for money, like the "christmas tapes" at the BBC & others. Last year I got two 16mm movies scanned professionally to HD. It was done in the after hours, so it was on the house. Normally that would have cost me well into three digit numbers.
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Post by John Wall on Oct 15, 2021 20:28:23 GMT
The obvious explanation is that Fawlty Towers was seen after 1975 on a pirate video copy from the UK. Any other scenario requires a Watergate standard conspiracy. Why do you find it so hard to believe that film stock could also be pirated like any other medium? Making dupes on 16mm, what's so impossible about that? There were even a few people using 16mm for home movies, so availability wasn't the problem. Fawlty Towers would be a bit late, but isn't that would they would have done with earlier programs, in, say, 1970? For the third time: when there's money to be made, people smuggle and break the rules a bit. Nothing crazy about it. Sometimes not even for money, like the "christmas tapes" at the BBC & others. Last year I got two 16mm movies scanned professionally to HD. It was done in the after hours, so it was on the house. Normally that would have cost me well into three digit numbers. The claim was Fawlty Towers, on film before TV started in SA, which you’ve now admitted “would be a bit late”. All sorts of things are possible, but what are we actually discussing?
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RWels
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Posts: 2,857
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Post by RWels on Oct 15, 2021 20:37:45 GMT
The claim was Fawlty Towers, on film before TV started in SA, which you’ve now admitted “would be a bit late”. All sorts of things are possible, but what are we actually discussing? Once again, as I was saying since page 5: I wouldn't be at all surprised if there had been film based piracy of television programs going on in South Africa until the late seventies; although it would be nice to have some more proof than we have now.
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Post by John Wall on Oct 15, 2021 20:41:56 GMT
The claim was Fawlty Towers, on film before TV started in SA, which you’ve now admitted “would be a bit late”. All sorts of things are possible, but what are we actually discussing? Once again, as I was saying since page 5: I wouldn't be at all surprised if there had been film based piracy of television programs going on in South Africa until the late seventies; although it would be nice to have some more proof than we have now. In an infinite universe anything, even the Hitchhiker’s Guide to the Galaxy, is possible.
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Post by Richard Marple on Oct 15, 2021 20:57:34 GMT
I've heard of a few early home video recordings finding their way to odd places. One one TV presentation group there was a mention of someone watching an episode of General Hospital (ATV) on an Italian or Maltese pirate station in the 1970s.
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RWels
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Posts: 2,857
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Post by RWels on Oct 15, 2021 21:12:12 GMT
Once again, as I was saying since page 5: I wouldn't be at all surprised if there had been film based piracy of television programs going on in South Africa until the late seventies; although it would be nice to have some more proof than we have now. In an infinite universe anything, even the Hitchhiker’s Guide to the Galaxy, is possible. Is that what you are discussing then? I don't know why you insist on commenting only with vague remarks like that or about Watergate. Can you seriously name me one "official" product that has never been bootlegged, copied, counterfeited, pirated or falsified? I don't care much for the specific example of Fawlty Towers because it's not missing. But if you must stick to Doctor Who examples - I believe that at one point, someone indeed was making dupes of some telerecordings. I don't remember all the details - ah see here: missingepisodes.proboards.com/thread/3526/16-copy-evil-daleks-ebay
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RWels
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Post by RWels on Oct 15, 2021 21:22:24 GMT
PS I just got a reply back from an Afrikaner I know who has an above average knowledge of this subject. He says:
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Post by John Wall on Oct 15, 2021 21:26:12 GMT
In an infinite universe anything, even the Hitchhiker’s Guide to the Galaxy, is possible. Is that what you are discussing then? I don't know why you insist on commenting only with vague remarks like that or about Watergate. Can you seriously name me one "official" product that has never been bootlegged, copied, counterfeited, pirated or falsified? I don't care much for the specific example of Fawlty Towers because it's not missing. But if you must stick to Doctor Who examples - I believe that at one point, someone indeed was making dupes of some telerecordings. I don't remember all the details - ah see here: missingepisodes.proboards.com/thread/3526/16-copy-evil-daleks-ebayRemember that the claim was that Fawlty Towers was shown on film in SA before TV started in 1975. I believe, based on the dates, etc, that someone may have seen it a few years later on a bootleg video. There is always a criminal element around but how does that help us?
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Post by richardwoods on Oct 15, 2021 21:35:13 GMT
Here’s a first, we are on the same side of an argument! I’m going to crack a bottle & raise a glass! Honestly, I have not kept track. I judge case by case. Plus, before you open that bottle, well, are we? Because there are examples of people making things up for no apparent reason. And of people who genuinely are mistaken or who've completely unintentionally falsified their own memories. The human brain is sadly not infallible. On the other hand, "Pertwee wasn't fully telerecorded" seems like "what also floats in water" logic - how would that affect a black market supply chain geared towards 16mm projection in a far away country? Too late, bottle opened. And of course you are right really, who’s keeping count. 😉😎. Yeah, I know the memory cheats from personal experience but I like to give folks who are sure about something they witnessed the benefit of the doubt, they were there, we weren’t. I still feel that SA might be a possible source for missing material. Without doubt an industry existed for creating multiple copies of 16mm reels for home film rental use, along with copies made of British Television programs for illicit screenings in cinemas and this was happening from the 60’s till the mid 70’s, so you would think something must survive somewhere. Difficult to know where to start though due to the cultural issues. BTW, he’s adamant he saw Faulty Towers in the mid 70’s in SA on film & I believe him. If it was pirated, the source for the films could surely have been from video via illicit telerecording. As I said before, there was an overlap with this industry & the start of TV in SA. Faulty Towers was just one example he gave of BBC programming shown this way. I’m sure I could ask him for some other titles but would there be any point?
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RWels
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Post by RWels on Oct 15, 2021 21:45:34 GMT
There is always a criminal element around but how does that help us? Oh, I don't know... It could help us find lost episodes...? Someone could have seen Fawlty Towers a bit later but still on film. As said before, it's not missing so why should we care about that example in particular. You give me the impression that you think it's ludicrous and absurd and fit for the realm of fantasy only. I personally think it might have happened because people wouldn't all suddenly own TV sets and video recorders in 1975. I don't doubt that with the passage of time, the projection circuit must have died out, and people turned to watching tape based copies at home on their TV sets.
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Post by richardwoods on Oct 15, 2021 22:02:29 GMT
There is always a criminal element around but how does that help us? Oh, I don't know... It could help us find lost episodes...? Someone could have seen Fawlty Towers a bit later but still on film. As said before, it's not missing so why should we care about that example in particular. You give me the impression that you think it's ludicrous and absurd and fit for the realm of fantasy only. I personally think it might have happened because people wouldn't all suddenly own TV sets and video recorders in 1975. I don't doubt that with the passage of time, the projection circuit must have died out, and people turned to watching tape based copies at home on their TV sets. Spot on. 100% agree. That’s what the guy is in effect telling us & he was actually there. We weren’t. Same with Neil’s story about the projection of Macra at the NZ Sports day. He was there, he is sure what he saw and he has witnesses who corroborate his story. While we are at it, I watched a rerun of the Apollo 11 moon landing on a reel to reel video recorder in a special assembly at my Junior School in Carlisle. I was there, my friends were there and remembered it last time I spoke to them about it in the late 70’s. Perhaps someone on here knows better & it didn’t happen?
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RWels
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Post by RWels on Oct 15, 2021 22:08:59 GMT
Well, I do want to leave some room for doubt. I mean, I don't know of any recovery made in South Africa. Maybe it was less searched because people, even Morris, followed the above board leads. But the story would be even better if it ended with several previously lost episodes returned.
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