Richard Develyn
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Living in hope that more missing episodes will come back to us.
Posts: 574
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Post by Richard Develyn on Jun 22, 2020 21:43:37 GMT
I still think it's wrong no matter how many people agree. WoF3 is a very exceptional case and essentially it's simply immoral theft. But if you write "a collector" it sounds like you mean any collector. I understand what the lure of the collector is, but that desire to possess something rare has got to be balanced against its desirability to people who are not collectors and who are not, therefore, participating in some sort of collector-competition where that sort of behaviour comes with the territory. And, like all the choices you make in life, you will probably have a happier time of it if the choice you make is considered by the part of the world at large which is interested to be fair and reasonable. Otherwise you're either going to get a lot of criticism or you will be pushed into secrecy, neither of which is a particularly nice place to be. Richard
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Post by stevehoare61 on Jun 23, 2020 6:31:54 GMT
Unfortunately Richard, I still don't think you do understand the lure of the Collector. You assumptions are based on ideal polite moral decency, however in the world of Collectors, as WOF3 has shown, that goes out of the window when something unique or super rare is in your grasp. Its quite a hypocritical situation too, because the said Collector would be horrified that someone else may get there first and have no intention of sharing it, admitting to having it and denying the fans a chance to see it when they would do exactly the same thing if theyd got there first. We know this already, this whole debate centres around someone who has lost episodes and we are probably no nearer to knowing which they are, how they got them and whether we will ever see them in our lifetime. Hardcore Collectors aren't bad people, their brains just work differently and its an addiction and obsession.
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Richard Develyn
Member
Living in hope that more missing episodes will come back to us.
Posts: 574
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Post by Richard Develyn on Jun 23, 2020 7:16:15 GMT
I understand people can be passionate, but being passionate is not an excuse for being selfish or anti-social. Being passionate doesn't short-circuit your brain's ability to understand the needs of others or make moral judgements. I think people try to use it as an excuse, but it doesn't wash (in my opinion). Hence, really, my original point - being forced into secrecy to avoid the condemnation of others.
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RWels
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Post by RWels on Jun 23, 2020 16:30:29 GMT
Thank god we aren't generalising here! It's almost is if it's a strange species and we're just waiting now for sir David to begin narrating about their habits.
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Post by stevehoare61 on Jun 23, 2020 16:46:53 GMT
But Collectors are...if Phil and Ian cant track them down, understand their living, mental and mating habits then Sir David wont...
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RWels
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Posts: 2,862
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Post by RWels on Jun 23, 2020 17:15:42 GMT
But Collectors are...if Phil and Ian cant track them down, understand their living, mental and mating habits then Sir David wont... Some believe that they are in fact, almost human. They may be among us. Also, IF they have mating habits, then I'm not sure I'm tuning in that night.
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Richard Develyn
Member
Living in hope that more missing episodes will come back to us.
Posts: 574
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Post by Richard Develyn on Jun 23, 2020 19:09:30 GMT
In my last post I didn't even use the word "collector". I'm talking generally about character traits here. It could apply to anyone.
I'm a collector, btw. I collect books. I may have books in my collection that other collectors would like, but if I owned, say, the only surviving copy of some book which loads of people wanted to read, I'd give it out.
Richard
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Post by isaacc on Jun 24, 2020 10:50:29 GMT
In the end it's really all about kindness, isn't it? I'm sure that most collectors would be happy to, like Richard, let people read or watch something if it was unique (like a missing episode). The point of this discussion isn't that ALL collectors are bad, we are specifically talking about the ones who refuse to let other people see something one-of-a-kind. To me (and I'm sure many others) it is just plain nasty to keep something like this.
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Post by Pete Morris on Jun 24, 2020 13:01:09 GMT
On the other hand, the only reason they exist at all is that a collector thought they were worth keeping. Without their actions the episodes would have been destroyed altogether. As it is, there is a chance we'll see it someday.
I wonder how many TV episodes and movies exist because a "selfish" collector preserved them. I mean any series or movie, not just Doctor Who.
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Richard Develyn
Member
Living in hope that more missing episodes will come back to us.
Posts: 574
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Post by Richard Develyn on Jun 24, 2020 13:19:05 GMT
On the other hand, the only reason they exist at all is that a collector thought they were worth keeping. Without their actions the episodes would have been destroyed altogether. As it is, there is a chance we'll see it someday. I wonder how many TV episodes and movies exist because a "selfish" collector preserved them. I mean any series or movie, not just Doctor Who. We'll never know. The only ones we'll know about are the ones who were preserved by a collector who wasn't "selfish". Furthermore, the benefit of someone saving a missing episode and then hoarding it is questionable. It might have been better if they'd left it where it was so that it might have been found by someone who wasn't going to hoard it. Imagine if someone had "rescued" WoF and EotW from Nigeria 30 years ago and still had it in their collection now? Sure, if someone literally saves a missing episode as it is going in to a crusher (or whatever it is they use) then that's a benefit even if the chances of the rest of us seeing it is slim, but grabbing it from a skip is not so clear ... someone better inclined towards humanity might have come along the next day and rescued it, or it might have been rescued by such a person at the tip, and so now be part of the episodes we can all watch. Richard
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RWels
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Post by RWels on Jun 24, 2020 14:11:16 GMT
Of the known episodes, I imagine that most of the "orphans" came from collectors.
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Post by Robin Stephenson on Jun 24, 2020 15:00:37 GMT
The anonymity argument doesn't really work. If someone doesn't want any publicity then all they need to do is contact the BBC or Paul V or any other relevant person and doubtless the Beeb or Phil Morris would be quite happy to send a courier and would agree to copy and return and keep their name secret. The announcement would then be made and their name never released.
People who collect vinyl aren't really a direct comparison either- tv series were made for broadcast. If it was say someones private cine films (if such things are of value to collectors) then I can see the analogy. The closest would be an original Beatles record of which only one copy was ever cut.....
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Richard Develyn
Member
Living in hope that more missing episodes will come back to us.
Posts: 574
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Post by Richard Develyn on Jun 24, 2020 16:31:53 GMT
Of the known episodes, I imagine that most of the "orphans" came from collectors. And I think - correct me if I'm wrong - that we know all of their names, so they're not secretive, and we're very grateful to them. Wonderful people. If the pubs ever open and we meet up in them I shall buy them several drinks :-) Richard
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Post by Paul Vanezis on Jun 24, 2020 17:33:35 GMT
Hi all,
Just to add some perspective to this,over the years I have spoken and negotiated with a great many film collectors. Quite a few are personal friends. I've heard just about every reason you could imagine for not either returning, selling or loaning out a film.
When something (anything) is part of a collection, it has a place. It's a part of the whole. For my collector friends that were dealers, most didn't care for that argument. They were passionate about the subject and offered a service to other enthusiasts. It's those enthusiasts who cherish the content. But I can tell you now that the worst thing that has happened in the world of 16mm film collecting is the interest in archive TV. Most film collectors regard TV prints as poor quality fillers, a support film at best that they will tolerate because of its content. The fact that most archive TV prints are black and white is one of the reasons they are not well regarded amongst collectors.
However, the interest in old TV prints has done several things and most of them aren't good. The first is that it has driven up the price of this material. On top of that, there has been an increase in interest for this type of content from 'outsiders', people who are not film collectors but just interested in the his particular content. These people are not liked by collectors because they tend to be quite pushy and show no interest in the hobby: they are seen as scalpers. Because of that, expect to pay through the nose if you don't show empathy with collectors.
The argument that collectors with missing shows such as Doctor Who in their collections should make them available for the greater good doesn't wash with true 16mm enthusiasts and it doesn't help when people accuse collectors who sell their films on Ebay of depriving the nation of the content. This is nonsense. The nation was deprived of the content when the broadcasters threw it away. It's one of the reasons I don't put any pressure on collectors because in the end, they will always, rightly or wrongly in others eyes, do what they think is right for them.
Paul
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RWels
Member
Posts: 2,862
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Post by RWels on Jun 24, 2020 18:41:57 GMT
Of the known episodes, I imagine that most of the "orphans" came from collectors. And I think - correct me if I'm wrong - that we know all of their names, so they're not secretive, and we're very grateful to them. Wonderful people. If the pubs ever open and we meet up in them I shall buy them several drinks :-) Richard We do? For other shows, it's often not disclosed. Nearly all of "At last the 1948 show" came back from collectors and I can't recall ever seeing their names. But my original point was, I'm totally fine with that. Totally up to them.
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