|
Post by Ed Brown on Mar 16, 2017 12:22:08 GMT
As, Jon indicates, there absolutely was a contractual issue in the form of the entirely non-mythical block that Terry Nation put on the exploitation of any of the Dalek stories both in the UK and overseas after 31 December 1967 ... Thankfully this block was lifted a year later in time for New Zealand (and, later, Singapore) to broadcast both Troughton Dalek serials between about 1969 & 1972. Australia had luckily got in before the block back in '67, I think. But this is why I described the so-called ban on overseas sales of 'Power of the Daleks' as a myth. Sales of those serials appear to continue throughout the period 1966 to 1972 - unless we are being invited to place no reliance on the broadcast details listed on certain well-known websites.
|
|
|
Post by Richard Bignell on Mar 16, 2017 12:22:44 GMT
Moreover, I happen to possess the original VHS release of 'Cybermen: The Early Years' by JNT. That presented the BBC's original print of this episode, which David's better quality print later replaced. Umm, no. The copy of The Wheel in Space 3 on Cybermen: The Early Years is David's print. It's the only copy that exists.
|
|
|
Post by Richard Bignell on Mar 16, 2017 12:29:59 GMT
But this is why I described the so-called ban on overseas sales of 'Power of the Daleks' as a myth. Sales of those serials appear to continue throughout the period 1966 to 1972 - unless we are being invited to place no reliance on the broadcast details listed on certain well-known websites. It's obviously not a myth, because the ban was imposed and did take effect. However, when the BBC decided not to co-invest in Nation's plan to make his own Dalek series and he couldn't get interest from anyone else, the ban was later lifted.
|
|
|
Post by Ed Brown on Mar 16, 2017 12:46:42 GMT
But this is why I described the so-called ban on overseas sales of 'Power of the Daleks' as a myth. Sales of those serials appear to continue throughout the period 1966 to 1972 - unless we are being invited to place no reliance on the broadcast details listed on certain well-known websites. It's obviously not a myth, because the ban was imposed and did take effect. However, when the BBC decided not to co-invest in Nation's plan to make his own Dalek series and he couldn't get interest from anyone else, the ban was later lifted. So we arrive where we began. As I stated, although there are reasonable grounds for believing that overseas markets were less likely to buy Troughton serials than Hartnell ones, principally over the issue of the re-casting of the role of the Doctor, those reasons don't include the omission of both the first and last serials of Troughton's first season (the two Dalek serials). I can certainly make a logical case for overseas broadcasters considering the later Troughton seasons to be less attractive from a ratings perspective, because of the complete absence of the Daleks from seasons 5 and 6, given that the Daleks were one of the most popular elements of the show. Therefore overseas stations might choose not to buy those seasons, or might even choose to satisfy the audience demand for Daleks by purchasing Hartnell seasons instead. If there was a temporary problem over sales of Power of the Daleks, this might have affected sales of the whole of Season 4, albeit only in the short term.
|
|
|
Post by Ed Brown on Mar 16, 2017 13:17:26 GMT
This is an unrelated point, but arises from something mentioned in passing.
The BBC seem to have been selling the right to transmit an individual episode at £20 an episode, in certain countries. This practice was based on an American business model: the American networks, in the 1960s, achieved worldwide sale for shows such as Bonanza by pricing the transmission rights at never more than the country concerned could afford - literally a few dollars an episode in some extremely poor countries.
The BBC seem to have covered the cost of striking a viewing print from the telerecording negative (easily the largest item of expense involved in any overseas sale) by selling the transmission rights to ABC in Australia or to CBC in Canada, at a price that covered fully the cost of making the transmission print (doing a telerecording onto film, processing the film, and printing from the negative). Having recovered that cost, plus a small profit, the BBC could then 'cycle' that print: i.e. re-use it for overseas sales in other countries.
It then didn't much matter what they charged for its use, as there was no cost in that case to be met for the creation of the print, so they could pass it around among small countries that lacked the financial resources of the Australians and Canadians.
Just a small point in passing, to explain how - and why - the economics of the tv industry are involved in the process the BBC termed 'cycling'.
|
|
|
Post by Ed Brown on Mar 16, 2017 13:57:29 GMT
On another thread on this forum, I recently expressed a view concerning the recovery of a missing episode of The Avengers.
It was discovered in a film archive in California, in fact at UCLA in Los Angeles, and I made the point that Los Angeles is a logical place in the USA to search for missing episodes of UK television series made on film, because Los Angeles is the home of all the major Hollywood film and tv studios. As such, that film archive is the most likely resting place of any film material not owned by the Hollywood Studios, such as British owned films, because of the archive's geographical proximity to Hollywood.
The points I made concerning The Avengers, a series distributed in America solely on film, apply equally to Doctor Who. That, too, is a series which was never distributed on 405-line VT, outside of the UK.
In light of certain remarks made in this thread about Terry Nation, it occurs to me to mention that during the 1960s he was anxious to do a deal with an American tv network, to produce a tv series featuring the Daleks. In order to do such a deal, Terry would have needed film of the Daleks to show to the tv network and potential backers.
Now, he might have taken with him to America prints of tv episodes in which the Daleks appear. I can think readily of one particular episode of the series which emphasised the Daleks, on their own as it were: a tv film in which the Dr Who cast don't appear and which runs only 25 minutes. Mission to the Unknown was a ready-made pilot film, for Terry's proposed Daleks-only tv series.
If he wanted film, he might have approached Milton Subotsky, and purchased a print of the 90-minute Dalek feature film. But a cheaper initial arrangement might have been made with the BBC, to simply borrow a print of one 25-minute tv episode. I can quite see how the tv company in America might even have had Nation at a disadvantage if he showed a feature film starring Peter Cushing: the American distributor would say, we can buy Dr Who from the BBC, but we can't make it ourselves because the BBC own it.
Much better to arrange a 25 minute screening of Mission, without Peter Cushing or Bill Hartnell, if one is trying to market the Daleks as a product entirely separated from other elements of Dr Who.
Any such print of the episode might be sitting in a vault at a film studio in Hollywood, or been handed over to UCLA for archiving.
If a 1961 episode of The Avengers (a hugely popular and instantly recognisable series in America) can sit on a shelf un-noticed at UCLA, for over 50 years, then anything can.
In support of this, I mention that this is exactly what happened when the BBC tv series Dad's Army was re-made by Columbia as a feature film: the BBC loaned two 1968 episodes of the tv series, on b/w film, to Jimmy Perry who took them along to Columbia, and had them screened for its Executives. The sale was agreed, the feature film got made, in 1971, and the two episodes then sat on a shelf at Columbia for years, and were eventually rediscovered and returned to the BBC 40 years later. Such was the fate of film prints in the years before the founding of the BBC film and vt archive in 1978.
|
|
|
Post by Richard Bignell on Mar 16, 2017 15:13:55 GMT
In light of certain remarks made in this thread about Terry Nation, it occurs to me to mention that during the 1960s he was anxious to do a deal with an American tv network, to produce a tv series featuring the Daleks. In order to do such a deal, Terry would have needed film of the Daleks to show to the tv network and potential backers. Now, he might have taken with him to America prints of tv episodes in which the Daleks appear. Nation's idea was for a Dalek series that was going to be made jointly with the BBC, so they weren't looking for a US producer, only a buyer. As such, they didn't require any Doctor Who/Dalek episodes to show the US networks. Terry Nation and Fred Alper's plan was to use the completed colour pilot to try to get a American stations interested in the idea, as confirmed in their production paperwork. And don't forget, the two Dalek feature films had also been distributed in the US prior to this, so there had already been some exposure Stateside to the creatures. Of course, the BBC pulled out of the co-production deal, so the whole thing collapsed before there was anything to show the network buyers. And if they did ever had a requirement to show the Daleks in action, Nation's agent, Associated London Scripts had already purchased film recordings of the first four episodes of 'The Dalek Invasion of Earth' some time previous.
|
|
|
Post by Ed Brown on Mar 23, 2017 17:24:05 GMT
Of course, the BBC pulled out of the co-production deal, so the whole thing collapsed before there was anything to show the network buyers. What were the BBC's reasons for withdrawing from the co-production deal? Does their decision have any bearing on the matters discussed in this thread? Nation's agent, Associated London Scripts had already purchased film recordings of the first four episodes of 'The Dalek Invasion of Earth' some time previous. Is it believed that those four episodes were obtained in order to show them to Milton Subotsky, with a view to convincing him that a Feature Film based on that tv serial would be a viable project?
|
|
|
Post by Richard Bignell on Mar 23, 2017 21:37:09 GMT
Of course, the BBC pulled out of the co-production deal, so the whole thing collapsed before there was anything to show the network buyers. What were the BBC's reasons for withdrawing from the co-production deal? Does their decision have any bearing on the matters discussed in this thread? The BBC said that they would only consider showing Nation's Dalek series on BBC2. David Attenborough, as Controller of BBC2, read the pilot script but didn't think there was any place if it on the channel, with it's limited available air time. We don't know why ALS purchased the episodes, but Subotsky wouldn't have needed to have been shown anything. He lived and worked in London and was obviously well aware of the series, the Daleks and the programme's popularity.
|
|
|
Post by Ed Brown on Mar 29, 2017 17:05:09 GMT
Is it believed that those four episodes were obtained in order to show them to Milton Subotsky, with a view to convincing him that a Feature Film based on that tv serial would be a viable project? We don't know why ALS purchased the episodes, but Subotsky wouldn't have needed to have been shown anything. He lived and worked in London and was obviously well aware of the series, the Daleks and the programme's popularity. It doesn't make sense for ALS to spend money on buying prints of that serial, if Nation had no use for those prints. One obvious possibility is that, in 1966, none of Subotsky's employees - the people who were going to have to design the sets, costumes and props for the 1966 Dalek feature film - would have been familiar with the 1964 tv serial, which had only aired once in the UK, and that had been two years previously. The logic of feature film production would have been for them to view the tv production which they were being asked to re-make. Hence Subotsky would have needed prints of at least one sample episode, to give his film crew a basis to work from. The alternative is that Nation simply wanted a film record of the tv show for his own viewing. In which case we should take a look through his surviving personal archive, to see which other serials he worked on he kept prints of. Perhaps he kept in his cupboard prints for a certain missing 12-part Dalek serial from 1965.
|
|
|
Post by Ed Brown on Mar 29, 2017 17:31:38 GMT
What were the BBC's reasons for withdrawing from the co-production deal? Does their decision have any bearing on the matters discussed in this thread? The BBC said that they would only consider showing Nation's Dalek series on BBC2. David Attenborough, as Controller of BBC2, read the pilot script but didn't think there was any place if it on the channel, with it's limited available air time. Nation must have needed better business advice than ALS gave him. According to your account, Nation approached the BBC with a proposal to make a television series featuring the Daleks, which he hoped would be shown on the BBC. He seems not to have been advised, by ALS, that the BBC already had a series on tv featuring the Daleks. It was called Doctor Who. So, you will doubtless reply that because the new Dalek series was to be made in colour, for showing on American tv also (which had gone fully into colour in 1966), the colour series would have to be shown on BBC2 - which in the 1960s was the only BBC channel that was broadcasting in colour (from 1967 onwards). Fine, but... In effect, Nation wanted to launch a mass-appeal Dalek series on a channel which only 5 percent of UK viewers, in 1967, could receive! ALS must not have had their heads screwed on straight if they advised Nation that this was a viable scheme. Hence, they could not have given him that advice. He must have been aware - because ALS must have been aware - that any UK screening of the proposed show was a mere sideshow, and that only a sale to a major US Network would justify the cost of production. And if he absolutely had to have a US sale of the series, he absolutely had to pre-sell it to them. Which he would need film of the Daleks in order to achieve. So he had a chicken-and-egg situation: the BBC were not going to finance the project, and with no pilot film to show in America he could not pre-sell the series there. So it boils down to a lack of finance. Wouldn't he have been better off approaching Lew Grade? By 1967, Nation was working for Grade over at ITV. And if it was a choice between David Attenborough and Lew Grade, would anyone in their right mind not approach Lew?
|
|
|
Post by Richard Bignell on Mar 29, 2017 21:37:00 GMT
One obvious possibility is that, in 1966, none of Subotsky's employees - the people who were going to have to design the sets, costumes and props for the 1966 Dalek feature film - would have been familiar with the 1964 tv serial, which had only aired once in the UK, and that had been two years previously. The logic of feature film production would have been for them to view the tv production which they were being asked to re-make. It's always a possibility, but would they need to though? The people who made the film were all seasoned professionals used to working from a script from scratch. They wouldn't have needed to have seen the original episodes so that they could crib off them. They would just design to the needs of the story, just like making any other film. If they were made for the purposes of the film, then it was all pretty pointless because nothing matches what was seen in the television serial! And why didn't they obtain prints for the first film which required far greater design ingenuity than the second?
|
|
|
Post by Richard Bignell on Mar 29, 2017 22:30:23 GMT
Nation must have needed better business advice than ALS gave him. Terry Nation's agent was Steven Moffat's mother-in-law, Beryl Vertue, a co-director of Associated London Scripts and also co-director of Dalek Productions Limited, the company specifically set up to produce the new Dalek series. She was, and is, one of the wiliest agents around and if you think that she didn't have her "head screwed on" over Nation's affairs, then you're very much mistaken. I've got no idea what you're getting at here. Nation approached the BBC, asking them to be equal partners in the production of the new Dalek series. The initial plan was to make a £40,000 25-minute colour pilot that would be used to try and secure a US network deal for the series, which would also be broadcast on the BBC in the UK. Nation and his co-financier, wealthy American business partner, Fred Alper, had already shown the pilot script to ABC and had gained some interest in the concept. No, Nation was primarily launching a colour television series for the US. The BBC's Director of Television insisted that they would only invest £20,000 into the pilot (and potentially £120,000 if the series was made) if David Attenborough as Controller of BBC2 was interested in transmitting it, which for various reasons, he wasn't. There's no indication that it was ever considered for BBC1. As a result, the BBC withdrew their interest. That was the whole point of making the pilot. That would be used to sell the series to the American networks. It's all there in black and white. If you don't believe me, book a visit to the BBC Written Archive Centre and look at the paperwork for yourself, or better still, read the excellent and comprehensive article that Andrew Pixley wrote for Doctor Who Magazine based on the paperwork that I rediscovered back in 2008. Can't really see the BBC giving permission for Nation to make a series based on a property they co-owned with a major rival.
|
|
|
Post by John W King on Mar 30, 2017 20:24:24 GMT
There's a lot of speculation about Terry Nation here. Has anybody asked his estate,Beryl Virtue or even dear David Attenborough for their recollections of the Dalek project? Or even if any of them have any missing episodes?
|
|
|
Post by Richard Bignell on Mar 30, 2017 20:39:48 GMT
There's a lot of speculation about Terry Nation here. Has anybody asked his estate,Beryl Virtue or even dear David Attenborough for their recollections of the Dalek project? Or even if any of them have any missing episodes? I'm in touch with Terry's son, Joel, who looks after Terry's Archive with his mum and I've spoken to Beryl Vertue in the past. I've also been in touch with the head of Twickenham Studios in 1966 were the pilot was due to be filmed and where pre-production work was evidently already underway. And no, they don't have any episodes, missing or otherwise!
|
|