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Post by Jon Preddle on Mar 1, 2014 19:32:39 GMT
AIUI, the master tapes were filed by tape number, unique to each episode. And with the eps being recorded a week apart, those numbers were not sequential, and therefore the individual eps making up a serial were not necessarily filed side by side.
Enterprises' telerecording negs were given the same codes as the tapes, however, it's not known how Enterprises stored their film copies: by number or by serial.
I could be wrong here, but after a negative was struck from each master tape, surely they'd run off a test positive in order to check that the negative came out okay, without any imperfections or defects (we already know that the master negs for Keys of Marinus were edited slightly to remove off-locks before the sales prints were created). Some of those 'orphaned' prints might be 'test' prints.
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Post by Robert Lia on Mar 1, 2014 19:36:50 GMT
By that logic then an extra print forever episode up threw Invasion of the Dinosaurs #6 could be kicking around. Very interesting possibility
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Post by Jon Preddle on Mar 1, 2014 19:54:59 GMT
Well, only if the 'test' print was deemed unsatisfactory and was chucked in a skip. But if the test print proved that the neg was okay, the test print would likely have become the first of the sales prints.
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Post by Robert Lia on Mar 1, 2014 22:49:21 GMT
Well, only if the 'test' print was deemed unsatisfactory and was chucked in a skip. But if the test print proved that the neg was okay, the test print would likely have become the first of the sales prints. Good point about them selling the test print if it checked out OK.
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Post by scotttelfer on Mar 1, 2014 23:08:40 GMT
The four stories were sold in later 1974 (after a last minute push by the BBC to sell episodes before the rights expired). The 24 episodes consisted of The Abominable Snowmen, The Enemy of the World, The Web of Fear and The Wheel in Space. Given Phillip Morris thinks that Web 3 was "separated" from the rest of them, rather than it simply being those eleven survived destruction it could be possible the other twelve went walkies at the same time. Hardly any firm proof, but it certainly is a possibility.
I agree completely with you Scott. I know statistically we are most likely to see Marco Polo & Reign 4 & 5 returned (most prints struck and sold abroad), but Nigeria has been such a rich hunting ground for lost Who I personally think Snowmen and Wheel (and Web 3) are the most likely finds if there are more to come. There is no evidence they were destroyed, and if Enemy & Web can turn up in an old almost-forgotten storehouse, I'd personally think the same is probably true of Snowmen & Wheel - just somewhere further along the chain, maybe in another storehouse. If so, Phil will have them tucked away in the TIEA storehouse by now, so one day we may find out
I think sadly that is the case with a few stories, most notably Mission to the Unknown and The Daleks' Master Plan, only one copy could possibly exist, but it is completely unaccounted for making it one of the least and most likely to be recovered.
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Post by Robert Lia on Mar 2, 2014 0:49:42 GMT
Yeah if the BBC Office in Sydney gave up on Daleks Master plan after the ABC walked away from it. The odds perhaps suggest there might only be one more print of the series and that being a copy held by BBC enterprise's that might have been made ahead of time based on prior Dalek story sales. We may never know. . . ?
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Post by lousingh on Mar 2, 2014 22:26:25 GMT
Yeah if the BBC Office in Sydney gave up on Daleks Master plan after the ABC walked away from it. The odds perhaps suggest there might only be one more print of the series and that being a copy held by BBC enterprise's that might have been made ahead of time based on prior Dalek story sales. We may never know. . . ? There is one other option. Background: back in the early 1970's, some of the more hardcore Star Trek fans noticed that the episodes were edited in syndication and that the edits varied from city to city. So they got chummy with station managers and such, who told them that they edited their prints of the episodes. Every now and then, the station would ditch the films of the least popular episodes and give them to collectors. (For instance, here in Buffalo, "Assignment: Earth" landed in the hands of a friend of mine who used to show it at every con he could just to show off.) Maybe something like this happened somewhere along the line and has been forgotten about.
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Post by John Wall on Mar 2, 2014 22:49:37 GMT
Yeah if the BBC Office in Sydney gave up on Daleks Master plan after the ABC walked away from it. The odds perhaps suggest there might only be one more print of the series and that being a copy held by BBC enterprise's that might have been made ahead of time based on prior Dalek story sales. We may never know. . . ? There is one other option. Background: back in the early 1970's, some of the more hardcore Star Trek fans noticed that the episodes were edited in syndication and that the edits varied from city to city. So they got chummy with station managers and such, who told them that they edited their prints of the episodes. Every now and then, the station would ditch the films of the least popular episodes and give them to collectors. (For instance, here in Buffalo, "Assignment: Earth" landed in the hands of a friend of mine who used to show it at every con he could just to show off.) Maybe something like this happened somewhere along the line and has been forgotten about. The only real hope for something like that is Australia where, at some times, there might have been multiple prints.
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Post by davidstead on Mar 2, 2014 23:47:39 GMT
Wheel 3 had no splices in it and at the time it was returned, was the best quality missing ep to come back via a private collector.
No tramlines and one slight faint neg (white line) scratch, during pat's scene where he's named Dr John Smith (off the machine!).
I was under the impression it was an ex aussie print when I bought it. The complete print of Dominators 5, plus 'Crisis' in Spanish. All were uncut although 'crisis' had water damage on the start.
The collector had them in the collection since the early 70's.
Mystery deepens.....
Hope that helps.....
Plus at least this post isn't likely to get deleted by the mods......
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Post by Robert Lia on Mar 3, 2014 0:27:08 GMT
Star Trek syndication in the US was different. I could at times receive Star Trek in Los Angeles on KCOP 13 and later KTLAS 5. I could also occasionally receive the KFMB-8 broadcast from San Diego. When I would watch them on the San Diego station you would often see that each station edited differently to add commercial time. You would see scenes on the San Diego broadcast that were cut out of the Los Angeles broadcast and vice a versa
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Post by Jon Preddle on Mar 3, 2014 2:42:13 GMT
I was under the impression it was an ex aussie print when I bought it. The collector had them in the collection since the early 70's. If it was earlier than 1973, Wheel 3 can't be from Australia, since the ABC still had it in 1973. Singapore aired it in 1970 -- but sent it to Nigeria. Gibraltar didn't air it until October 1973. If it was later than 1973, then my guess is it came from Gibraltar. Or it could have been a spare unused print the BBC had on the shelf. As you said - a mystery!
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Post by Jon Preddle on Mar 3, 2014 8:30:20 GMT
Could this be the case for Feast Of Steven too? Someone may have made a copy before deciding it's too irrelevent to include in sales packages! (then ended up in someone's loft). Unlikely -- given the time and expense of making a film print, it's doubtful someone would do so without the proper authorisation.
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Post by scotttelfer on Mar 3, 2014 9:54:05 GMT
Not all the existing prints have to be ex-broadcast prints returned from overseas. Some may have been spare "oops, we made one too many, let's bung it on the shelf for now" copies. Could this be the case for Feast Of Steven too? Someone may have made a copy before deciding it's too irrelevent to include in sales packages! (then ended up in someone's loft). According to wiped, the tape was requested by Enterprises vaguely suggesting it could be so. P.S. Nice Skaro interview (along with Damian Shanahan) There is only one possibility where a copy could have been made. Literally weeks before the video tapes were wiped, stored field technology became available so BBC Enterprises ordered a copy of every episode up to and including The Gunfighters in the format. I'm not too certain on whether or not this would have been before or after the Australian sale (I'll check the dates when I get home tonight) but if a copy of The Feast of Steven was ever made it must have been created during this "upgrade" of their older footage (but in any case it would have been kept by BBC Enterprises and would almost certainly have been disposed of alongside the rest of The Daleks' Master Plan. Does anyone here know if the remaining episodes for the story suppressed or stored? Might give us an idea of the likelihood of finding a potential copy (as only one could ever have been made and its existence is doubtful).
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Post by Matthew Kurth on Mar 3, 2014 10:16:28 GMT
There is only one possibility where a copy could have been made. Literally weeks before the video tapes were wiped, stored field technology became available so BBC Enterprises ordered a copy of every episode up to and including The Gunfighters in the format. I'm not too certain on whether or not this would have been before or after the Australian sale but if a copy of The Feast of Steven was ever made it must have been created during this "upgrade" of their older footage. I hadn't been aware of the timing involved with the run of stored field prints. The idea that DMP -- with or without Episode 7 -- might have been run off along with everything else is tantalizing!
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Post by scotttelfer on Mar 3, 2014 13:35:48 GMT
There is only one possibility where a copy could have been made. Literally weeks before the video tapes were wiped, stored field technology became available so BBC Enterprises ordered a copy of every episode up to and including The Gunfighters in the format. I'm not too certain on whether or not this would have been before or after the Australian sale but if a copy of The Feast of Steven was ever made it must have been created during this "upgrade" of their older footage. I hadn't been aware of the timing involved with the run of stored field prints. The idea that DMP -- with or without Episode 7 -- might have been run off along with everything else is tantalizing! I've not got any proof to confirm it, but I certainly haven't seen anything that would dispute it either. All that I know is they ordered everything up to and including THe Gunfighters, which you would assume would include The Daleks' Master Plan. It wouldn't take much of a leap of the imagination to presume they would have left out The Feast of Steven again as they hadn't ordered it the first time round so the engineers would have left it this time as well, but anything is possible and stranger things have happened. As we all know though the information is incomplete, we really can't take anything for granted especially given recent developments (although I'm fairly certain we'd have seen a reference somewhere to the sale of the story if it had been, even in passing without sales records to back it up as is the case with Mission to the Unknown).
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