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Post by Luke Sherlaw on Jun 14, 2018 23:40:11 GMT
Indeed. I can see why they did it, but there'll always be a bit of salt from me in the regard that it was one of the last serials destroyed. I just wish that it had been at the back of a cupboard like The Ice Warriors and evaded destruction. I was talking in general. I know you were talking generally since Fury wasn't the only thing affected, nor was Doctor Who in general. I just brought up Fury since it got mentioned.
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Post by Jon Preddle on Jun 14, 2018 23:49:54 GMT
Between Australia and New Zealand's censors god knows how many potential sales of episodes were lost to the rest of the world that no longer exist But even if ABC had screened 'Master Plan', there is no certainty that any episodes would have survived. After all, many other season 3 serials are completely missing - 'Myth Makers', 'Massacre', 'Savages' and 'Smugglers'. It's even possible that the three we have today (if they are the ex-Australian ones) wouldn't exist now if it had been screened!
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Post by Robert Lia on Jun 15, 2018 0:09:04 GMT
Very true indeed, my point was had Australia or New Zeal took them there is always the chance they would have later been offered to Nigeria, but we shall never know
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Post by Mike Biggs on Jun 15, 2018 9:52:00 GMT
I disagree. The episode(s) likely wouldn't be here today without them. At the very least, someone else gets to see them. Is the person a bit of a jerk for hoarding? Yeah. But it's their choice, and their right. I probably would do the same if I was in their position. Actually I would just charge people to see the print. I'm evil like that. Then I hope a missing episode never comes into your possession.
I'm kind of in two minds about this. We can applaud people for keeping them safe, but if there is no intention of ever allowing the films to go back to the public (particularly if they would rather destroy them than have them go back), then they may as well not exist. The collectors themselves have no legal right to the films, as they are basically stolen property. So I think the idea that they are "theirs" in some sort of legal or moral way, is just wrong. But I have dealt with similar situations in my professional life as an Archivist. People who have ended up with public records through various means - including cases where records were rescued from the rubbish dump (much like these films). The big difference is the Public Records Act in NZ can be used to force the return of these "estrays", with hefty fines if they don't co-operate. But this is a mechanism of last resort. Going in heavy handed like that sours people and encourages them to work against you - which in turn means things can be hidden from you. So instead, you establish a relationship and maintain that over time. Eventually, when the time is right, you might be able to arrange transfer of the records to your control. It's annoying, but taking the slow route builds up your friends and can end up opening other avenues and new sources. I know people feel strongly about it (I do myself), but calling collectors unpleasant names does absolutely no good and could do a great deal of harm.
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RWels
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Post by RWels on Jun 15, 2018 13:15:59 GMT
The collectors themselves have no legal right to the films, as they are basically stolen property. I wouldn't be so sure. Is it illegal everywhere to take things from a skip? And if that was 50 years ago, surely that's expired. Implying that the owners are somehow not entirely honest may not be truthful or helpful either. "Hey criminals, come forward please!" Their whole line of reasoning is probably that they saved the episodes and cared for them for 20-30 years when they should have been destroyed... Oh and now they want them back??? I know of one 1930s comedy that was kept safe for years by a collector, but around the time of his death it got water damage in a flood and had to be discarded. So that was the end of the last known complete copy. Morally I'd still say that the programs were made for all to see, so there is some sort of taint in keeping them to oneself. All those talented people didn't make all those programs just for you alone. I disagree. The episode(s) likely wouldn't be here today without them. At the very least, someone else gets to see them. Is the person a bit of a jerk for hoarding? Yeah. But it's their choice, and their right. I probably would do the same if I was in their position. Actually I would just charge people to see the print. I'm evil like that. It all depends on their reasons. This for example seems not so much evil, just petty and insecure.
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Post by Mike Biggs on Jun 15, 2018 22:41:12 GMT
The collectors themselves have no legal right to the films, as they are basically stolen property. I wouldn't be so sure. Is it illegal everywhere to take things from a skip? And if that was 50 years ago, surely that's expired. Implying that the owners are somehow not entirely honest may not be truthful or helpful either. "Hey criminals, come forward please!" Their whole line of reasoning is probably that they saved the episodes and cared for them for 20-30 years when they should have been destroyed... Oh and now they want them back??? I know of one 1930s comedy that was kept safe for years by a collector, but around the time of his death it got water damage in a flood and had to be discarded. So that was the end of the last known complete copy. Morally I'd still say that the programs were made for all to see, so there is some sort of taint in keeping them to oneself. All those talented people didn't make all those programs just for you alone. I pretty much agree with you. A quick google search brought up articles in the UK and NZ indicating that it would be illegal to take things from a skip without permission. But that's not really that important, as the BBC has made the policy decision not to contest ownership of items removed from skips - if a collector has something, it is theirs as far as the BBC is concerned. A sensible call really, as it would only alienate or freak out collectors to do otherwise.
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Post by Stephen Neve on Jun 24, 2018 19:35:56 GMT
The collectors themselves have no legal right to the films, as they are basically stolen property. I wouldn't be so sure. Is it illegal everywhere to take things from a skip? And if that was 50 years ago, surely that's expired. Implying that the owners are somehow not entirely honest may not be truthful or helpful either. "Hey criminals, come forward please!" Their whole line of reasoning is probably that they saved the episodes and cared for them for 20-30 years when they should have been destroyed... Oh and now they want them back??? Its not illegal for them to own the film but it is technically illegal for them to view it with out the copyright holders permission.
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Post by Stephen Neve on Jun 24, 2018 19:48:04 GMT
Then I hope a missing episode never comes into your possession. I'm kind of in two minds about this. We can applaud people for keeping them safe, but if there is no intention of ever allowing the films to go back to the public (particularly if they would rather destroy them than have them go back), then they may as well not exist. The collectors themselves have no legal right to the films, as they are basically stolen property. So I think the idea that they are "theirs" in some sort of legal or moral way, is just wrong. But I have dealt with similar situations in my professional life as an Archivist. People who have ended up with public records through various means - including cases where records were rescued from the rubbish dump (much like these films). The big difference is the Public Records Act in NZ can be used to force the return of these "estrays", with hefty fines if they don't co-operate. But this is a mechanism of last resort. Going in heavy handed like that sours people and encourages them to work against you - which in turn means things can be hidden from you. So instead, you establish a relationship and maintain that over time. Eventually, when the time is right, you might be able to arrange transfer of the records to your control. It's annoying, but taking the slow route builds up your friends and can end up opening other avenues and new sources. I know people feel strongly about it (I do myself), but calling collectors unpleasant names does absolutely no good and could do a great deal of harm. Its not going to do any harm cause most collectors are good people who do allow access to their films. Its the very tiny small minority who choose to hoard these things who are the scumbags. The BBC only want to borrow these films for copying, then they are given back to the collector. Very selfish people who rob others of enjoying these programmes because its mine and nobody else can ever have it. Bare in mind the small minority who hoard these films probally obtained them in the 1970's and 1980'S so they have had forty odd years to return these films, they have not done so i don't expect they will in the next 40 years.
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Post by Richard Bignell on Jun 24, 2018 20:22:30 GMT
I wouldn't be so sure. Is it illegal everywhere to take things from a skip? And if that was 50 years ago, surely that's expired. Implying that the owners are somehow not entirely honest may not be truthful or helpful either. "Hey criminals, come forward please!" Their whole line of reasoning is probably that they saved the episodes and cared for them for 20-30 years when they should have been destroyed... Oh and now they want them back??? Its not illegal for them to own the film but it is technically illegal for them to view it with out the copyright holders permission. No it isn't. They can view it as much as they want. But the copyright on the content of the film isn't theirs, so the are limited as to what they can do with it.
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RWels
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Post by RWels on Jun 24, 2018 21:52:39 GMT
Its not illegal for them to own the film but it is technically illegal for them to view it with out the copyright holders permission. No it isn't. They can view it as much as they want. But the copyright on the content of the film isn't theirs, so the are limited as to what they can do with it. I agree. If you read the warning at the start of a - any - VHS/DVD/BR, the text there would have you believe that they will condone your viewing it, only as long as you are on your own, in a soundproof basement, providing you're blindfolded and wearing earplugs. (OK I am SLIGHTLY exagerating here. But not much.) I'm not a legal expert, but it can't be quite so bad...
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Post by EJR Tairne on Jun 25, 2018 18:43:40 GMT
I mean, there's currently no way to make our brains, or their contents, illegal.
What copyright is concerned with is money, not ideas. It's right in the name; the problem comes when you take the liberty to copy and distribute a thing.
But not to your own brain, because again this is not a thing we can regulate. It would be a bad copy, anyway. More of a derivative work.
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Post by markhumphries on Jun 28, 2018 8:03:58 GMT
Ok, open question to Paul then if he reads this.
In your opinion, are these collectors not giving back the missing episodes because of their uniqueness or is it for fear of a Bob Monkhouse level court case being forced onto them?
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Post by EJR Tairne on Jun 29, 2018 1:38:21 GMT
I mean, if by chance I discovered that a comic book I owned was the only surviving copy, I wouldn't be rushing to donate it to the Smithsonian. I'd think, oh, that's interesting, then get back to my life. I doubt I'd think or bother to mention it to anyone unless I had a reason to. And if someone began to bother me about it, I'd very likely be irritated, depending on how they approached me. I wouldn't owe anyone my time or effort or access to my stuff. But as a favor, to someone who took the time to meet me at least halfway and understood what they were asking of me, I might relent and dig the thing up for them.
The answer to why people do the things they do is usually pretty mundane.
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Post by tom rogers on Jun 29, 2018 10:13:47 GMT
I mean, if by chance I discovered that a comic book I owned was the only surviving copy, I wouldn't be rushing to donate it to the Smithsonian. I'd think, oh, that's interesting, then get back to my life. I doubt I'd think or bother to mention it to anyone unless I had a reason to. And if someone began to bother me about it, I'd very likely be irritated, depending on how they approached me. I wouldn't owe anyone my time or effort or access to my stuff. But as a favor, to someone who took the time to meet me at least halfway and understood what they were asking of me, I might relent and dig the thing up for them. The answer to why people do the things they do is usually pretty mundane. Precisely.
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Post by Sue Butcher on Jun 30, 2018 1:40:04 GMT
I'm in just that position with the Brain Of Morbius camera script. Until a few weeks ago I wasn't aware that it was missing from the BBC's script archive. I've probably still got it, but it wasn't in the obvious place when I looked, and I haven't got time at the moment to search my considerable collection of papers to find it. As for missing television, I don't know exactly what I've got in that pile of videocassettes either. (No missing Doctor Who I'm sure.)
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