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Post by Jon Preddle on Jun 13, 2018 20:22:30 GMT
Phil Morris said that he'd found that serials had been sent to places where they hadn't been bought (by which I assume that means the right to screen). Correct -- but as I said before, that's actually standard procedure. Rights weren't "bought" until after the receiving TV station had assessed the films first. Sure there were odd occasions where a station might buy a series 'sight unseen', but that option was usually adopted by stations that didn't have strict quality or content controls. Correct -- but that's actually the same thing as above, just worded differently. Plus we've seen examples of this happening, with rejections of stories sent to Australia and New Zealand. Nigeria was the last country to acquire Snowmen, Enemy, Web and Wheel, because the Commonwealth rights on them were about to expire. (The CW rights had already expired on Fury and Wheel since NZ hadn't bought them.) By that late stage, splitting up sets no longer mattered since there wouldn't be any more sales.
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Post by Philip C Huish on Jun 13, 2018 20:33:24 GMT
Phil Morris said that he'd found that serials had been sent to places where they hadn't been bought (by which I assume that means the right to screen). Correct -- but as I said before, that's actually standard procedure. Rights weren't "bought" until after the receiving TV station had assessed the films first. Sure there were odd occasions where a station might buy a series 'sight unseen', but that option was usually adopted by stations that didn't have strict quality or content controls. Correct -- but that's actually the same thing as above, just worded differently. Plus we've seen examples of this happening, with rejections of stories sent to Australia and New Zealand. Nigeria was the last country to acquire Snowmen, Enemy, Web and Wheel, because the Commonwealth rights on them were about to expire. (The CW rights had already expired on Fury and Wheel since NZ hadn't bought them.) By that late stage, splitting up sets no longer mattered since there wouldn't be any more sales. The difference is a matter of intent. The first assumes that they intended to buy all of the episodes sent to them. The second assumes that they were sent serials that they never intended to buy the rights to screen. That is what I got from what Phil Morris said (a while back I know).
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Post by Jon Preddle on Jun 13, 2018 21:05:12 GMT
The difference is a matter of intent. The first assumes that they intended to buy all of the episodes sent to them. The second assumes that they were sent serials that they never intended to buy the rights to screen. That is what I got from what Phil Morris said (a while back I know). Yes, the "first" is standard practice; that's how the TV industry worked. But the "second" is a scenario that I can't see would ever happen. Why would it? If films were sent to a country that "ever intended to buy the rights to screen" there wouldn't be paperwork for Phil or anyone to find to inform them of this, would there,so how would one know the intent? And it's standard export/import procedure that an importer pays for shipping, customs, tax, duty, etc, on inward goods. Added to that would be the transportation costs from port / airfield to station (For example, Jos was hundreds of miles inland from the coast; and if the films had come from Singapore, there wouldn't be direct flights to Jos, so there would be additional flights / trains to be paid for.) If they didn't intend to screen the films, why would a TV station bring them into the country?
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Post by scotttelfer on Jun 13, 2018 21:51:58 GMT
Nigeria was the last country to acquire Snowmen, Enemy, Web and Wheel, because the Commonwealth rights on them were about to expire. (The CW rights had already expired on Fury and Wheel since NZ hadn't bought them.) By that late stage, splitting up sets no longer mattered since there wouldn't be any more sales.
This is the problem I'm having: why does New Zealand rejecting the episodes lead to BBC Enterprises allowing the rights to expire? At the end of the day, they are a business even if their purpose is helping out Auntie, so why would they renew for a single broadcaster in Nigeria? If it was financially worthwhile surely they'd have renewed more than just those four serials?
While the New Zealand sale (or lack thereof) may have motivated them to pull these episodes from sale (due to perceived lack of interest), it wouldn't have been a direct financial motivation unless they took a loss and were trying to recoup some of this with the Nigeria sale.
Just to make absolutely sure we are all clear, it was BBC Enterprises deciding to renew or not, a foreign broadcaster picking it up didn't reset a timer in the contract.
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Post by John Wall on Jun 13, 2018 23:05:33 GMT
Nigeria was the last country to acquire Snowmen, Enemy, Web and Wheel, because the Commonwealth rights on them were about to expire. (The CW rights had already expired on Fury and Wheel since NZ hadn't bought them.) By that late stage, splitting up sets no longer mattered since there wouldn't be any more sales.
This is the problem I'm having: why does New Zealand rejecting the episodes lead to BBC Enterprises allowing the rights to expire? At the end of the day, they are a business even if their purpose is helping out Auntie, so why would they renew for a single broadcaster in Nigeria? If it was financially worthwhile surely they'd have renewed more than just those four serials?
While the New Zealand sale (or lack thereof) may have motivated them to pull these episodes from sale (due to perceived lack of interest), it wouldn't have been a direct financial motivation unless they took a loss and were trying to recoup some of this with the Nigeria sale. Just to make absolutely sure we are all clear, it was BBC Enterprises deciding to renew or not, a foreign broadcaster picking it up didn't reset a timer in the contract.
Colour was on the way.
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Post by Stephen Neve on Jun 13, 2018 23:17:34 GMT
Basic revelation in the interview is something a lot of us suspected: There are collectors with missing episodes of Doctor Who. However, Paul is quick to say that the number is really only one, maybe two ... something really low. But it was a direct confirmation that they exist. And, as stated in the interview, these collectors should be thanked. The films are in good condition still. The collectors are not the type of people to pressure ... and I for one don't want to. The only message I'd want to tell them is "thank you" for their passion of collecting and knowledge of keeping things safe. Sorry but whoever has these episodes is scum. Keeping them safe means nothing if they won't ever hand them over. Many fans are being robbed of the chance to view these episodes. Harsh words but its how I feel. It sadden me that one day I will go to my grave without seeing these two episodes because of some selfish bastard.
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Post by Jon Preddle on Jun 13, 2018 23:20:24 GMT
This is the problem I'm having: why does New Zealand rejecting the episodes lead to BBC Enterprises allowing the rights to expire? At the end of the day, they are a business even if their purpose is helping out Auntie, so why would they renew for a single broadcaster in Nigeria? If it was financially worthwhile surely they'd have renewed more than just those four serials?
While the New Zealand sale (or lack thereof) may have motivated them to pull these episodes from sale (due to perceived lack of interest), it wouldn't have been a direct financial motivation unless they took a loss and were trying to recoup some of this with the Nigeria sale. Just to make absolutely sure we are all clear, it was BBC Enterprises deciding to renew or not, a foreign broadcaster picking it up didn't reset a timer in the contract.
I think you're getting some of the terminology wrong and misunderstanding the rights situation, and getting tied up in knots as a result... The BBC had a sales rights window of five or seven years after the UK broadcast. Sales were done in major/minor combinations to meet with agreements with actor's union Equity. For every sale to a major Commonwealth country, there was an associated sale to a minor CW country, with something like a 75/25 split. But the entire fee was payable in full in advance at the time of the major sale, so it was in the BBC's best interests to ensure they also made the associated 'minor' sale as soon as possible. But sometimes this wasn't always the case. In terms of season five, the sales breakdown was: * Australia (major) * Hong Kong (minor) and Singapore (minor) which 'balanced' the sale to Australia [note: the ABC bought two screenings, so this allowed for two minor sales] * NZ (major) * Gibraltar (major) + Zambia (minor) * Nigeria (minor) which 'balanced' the sale to NZ NZ didn't acquire Warriors and Fury, so Nigeria was not able to. The Nigeria sale of the other four stories was completed very shortly before the seven year rights expired and specifically in order to 'balance' the sale that had been made to NZ some four years (!!) earlier, so the BBC would have been in a bit of a panic to get this finalised in time. Zambia didn't acquire Fury and Wheel, which left 'minor' sales on them to be completed before the rights expired in 1975. But ultimately these two outstanding 'minor' sales never happened. We don't know how proactive the BBC had been in trying to secure these two sales, but by then they were a bit limited to which minor countries they could offer them to.
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Post by Logan Jutanberg on Jun 13, 2018 23:23:08 GMT
Basic revelation in the interview is something a lot of us suspected: There are collectors with missing episodes of Doctor Who. However, Paul is quick to say that the number is really only one, maybe two ... something really low. But it was a direct confirmation that they exist. And, as stated in the interview, these collectors should be thanked. The films are in good condition still. The collectors are not the type of people to pressure ... and I for one don't want to. The only message I'd want to tell them is "thank you" for their passion of collecting and knowledge of keeping things safe. Sorry but whoever has these episodes is scum. Keeping them safe means nothing if they won't ever hand them over. Many fans are being robbed of the chance to view these episodes. Harsh words but its how I feel. It sadden me that one day I will go to my grave without seeing these two episodes because of some selfish bastard. I disagree. The episode(s) likely wouldn't be here today without them. At the very least, someone else gets to see them. Is the person a bit of a jerk for hoarding? Yeah. But it's their choice, and their right. I probably would do the same if I was in their position. Actually I would just charge people to see the print. I'm evil like that.
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Post by Robert Lia on Jun 14, 2018 1:17:52 GMT
With out the collectors the episodes' would be lost, 25 years ago I would have felt angry but not any more, now I am just trying to figure out the Major / Minor Commonwealth Country thingie
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Post by Deleted on Jun 14, 2018 1:34:26 GMT
Basic revelation in the interview is something a lot of us suspected: There are collectors with missing episodes of Doctor Who. However, Paul is quick to say that the number is really only one, maybe two ... something really low. But it was a direct confirmation that they exist. And, as stated in the interview, these collectors should be thanked. The films are in good condition still. The collectors are not the type of people to pressure ... and I for one don't want to. The only message I'd want to tell them is "thank you" for their passion of collecting and knowledge of keeping things safe. Sorry but whoever has these episodes is scum. Keeping them safe means nothing if they won't ever hand them over. Many fans are being robbed of the chance to view these episodes. Harsh words but its how I feel. It sadden me that one day I will go to my grave without seeing these two episodes because of some selfish bastard. Frankly it's your post that reads as selfish. You sound like a kid who's throwing all of their toys out of the pram because they're not getting what they want and now. You don't even know the person from Adam, so how do you know first-hand that they're 'scum'? And how do you know that you'll go to the grave without seeing these 'two' episodes? Do you have a crystal ball? Harsh words aren't going to bring back missing episodes. If anyone thinks differently, please say so.
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Post by Chris Wilkinson on Jun 14, 2018 8:58:07 GMT
It must also be mentioned that NZ sent Fury and Warriors back to the UK c. 1970 because they were unsuitable for broadcast, so they were likely retained for a future sale to Gibraltar or destroyed upon return. [/quote] That's not correct. NZBC kept the films until late 1974, and at the BBC's request sent them to the landfill -- the same one that The Lion was found in. [/quote][/p]
BroaDWCast: 'The New Zealand programme purchasers rejected this story in late 1970'. NZBC did not keep every set of prints. Some were sent on to Singapore in two batches, others were kept, others were returned to the UK.
The Missing Episodes BlogSpot strongly suggests that these serials were returned to the UK: 'July [1970] The NZBC in New Zealand sent their 16mm film copies of The Faceless Ones 1 2 3 4 5 6 back to BBC London. This story did not air in New Zealand and the BBC likely requested it be returned for resale, knowing the films hadn’t been attacked by the censor’s knife. It is possible that The Ice Warriors and Fury from the Deep – two stories which also didn’t screen in New Zealand – were also sent back to London.'
Previous stories that were rejected by broadcasters, such as Master Plan in Australia, were likely not kept and returned soon after their rejection.
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Post by Jon Preddle on Jun 14, 2018 9:28:22 GMT
That's not correct. NZBC kept the films until late 1974, and at the BBC's request sent them to the landfill -- the same one that The Lion was found in.
The NZBC film traffic registers which I have seen record that 'The Faceless Ones' went back to London in July 1970. There is nothing so precise in the registers to say what happened to 'Warriors' and 'Fury', which weren't received in NZ until several months after 'Faceless' Ones' had been sent back, so if they did go back, it wasn't in 1970. Besides, notations on other pages in the registers and records in other NZBC files indicate that the films were sent to landfill in 1974, at the same time as 'The Lion'.
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Post by Robbie Moubert on Jun 14, 2018 10:14:53 GMT
Can't help a wry smile at someone quoting BroaDWcast to Jon Preddle.
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Post by Ronnie McDevitt on Jun 14, 2018 11:03:20 GMT
Basic revelation in the interview is something a lot of us suspected: There are collectors with missing episodes of Doctor Who. However, Paul is quick to say that the number is really only one, maybe two ... something really low. But it was a direct confirmation that they exist. And, as stated in the interview, these collectors should be thanked. The films are in good condition still. The collectors are not the type of people to pressure ... and I for one don't want to. The only message I'd want to tell them is "thank you" for their passion of collecting and knowledge of keeping things safe. Sorry but whoever has these episodes is scum. Keeping them safe means nothing if they won't ever hand them over. Many fans are being robbed of the chance to view these episodes. Harsh words but its how I feel. It sadden me that one day I will go to my grave without seeing these two episodes because of some selfish bastard. I would totally defend any collectors right to do what they wished with any film prints they have acquired and maintained. Stephen your opinions of these people will do nothing to aid their return and indeed may even deter them. Why would they want someone labelling them as `scum' to get their hands on a copy? And believe me there are far more important things in life than spending 25 minutes watching an old TV programme before - as you put it - you go to your grave.'
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Post by Chris Wilkinson on Jun 14, 2018 11:43:37 GMT
Can't help a wry smile at someone quoting BroaDWcast to Jon Preddle. Smile all you like, my questioning of the narrative has uncovered a few inconsistencies in the information (especially between BroaDWcast and the Missing Episodes BlogSpot, though it is clear that the latter is less credible) that is presently available to those of us who are not in the vanguard of missing episode recoveries. It is surely the responsibility of any academically-minded individual to want to ensure that the truth is being told.
What explanation is there for NZBC holding onto the prints knowing that they either wouldn't or couldn't screen the serial? The Master Plan return from Australia was thought to have been fairly soon after its rejection; I'm interested to know why this precedent wasn't followed in this case.
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