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Post by John Wall on Jun 12, 2018 18:42:00 GMT
Be careful! If you used the data from my previous post, then it applied to Australia prints only (using existing missing episodes data) - not every country. I've attached a chart depicting what I believe to be the most likely serials in general, not just from Australia. Ignore the numbers; they denote the serial order - not the likeliest serials to return. Still, good work though! Given what Phil Morris has said about prints being sent to places they'd not be bought, I'd not be surprised if a copy of Fury turned up in Nigeria, especially as the serials before and after were sent there and that they don't tend to junk stuff. The same could be true of some of the other missing season 5 serials. If that’s correct then it might be possible to track down details from newspapers.
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Post by Philip C Huish on Jun 12, 2018 18:47:37 GMT
Given what Phil Morris has said about prints being sent to places they'd not be bought, I'd not be surprised if a copy of Fury turned up in Nigeria, especially as the serials before and after were sent there and that they don't tend to junk stuff. The same could be true of some of the other missing season 5 serials. If that’s correct then it might be possible to track down details from newspapers. <iframe width="28.38000000000011" height="5.159999999999997" style="position: absolute; width: 28.38000000000011px; height: 5.159999999999997px; z-index: -9999; border-style: none;left: 15px; top: -5px;" id="MoatPxIOPT0_33847415" scrolling="no"></iframe> <iframe width="28.38000000000011" height="5.159999999999997" style="position: absolute; width: 28.38px; height: 5.16px; z-index: -9999; border-style: none; left: 1354px; top: -5px;" id="MoatPxIOPT0_16483192" scrolling="no"></iframe> <iframe width="28.38000000000011" height="5.159999999999997" style="position: absolute; width: 28.38px; height: 5.16px; z-index: -9999; border-style: none; left: 15px; top: 196px;" id="MoatPxIOPT0_46927457" scrolling="no"></iframe> <iframe width="28.38000000000011" height="5.159999999999997" style="position: absolute; width: 28.38px; height: 5.16px; z-index: -9999; border-style: none; left: 1354px; top: 196px;" id="MoatPxIOPT0_76294999" scrolling="no"></iframe> The two most likely serials to turn up in nigeria that they were never sold would be Fury and Ice Warriors. especially as they were sold Snowman, Web, Enemy and Wheel.
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Post by lousingh on Jun 12, 2018 19:02:38 GMT
Note to self: these articles are what "Fake News" actually is.
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Post by ianphillips on Jun 12, 2018 21:46:43 GMT
Be careful! If you used the data from my previous post, then it applied to Australia prints only (using existing missing episodes data) - not every country. I've attached a chart depicting what I believe to be the most likely serials in general, not just from Australia. Ignore the numbers; they denote the serial order - not the likeliest serials to return. Still, good work though! Given what Phil Morris has said about prints being sent to places they'd not be bought, I'd not be surprised if a copy of Fury turned up in Nigeria, especially as the serials before and after were sent there and that they don't tend to junk stuff. The same could be true of some of the other missing season 5 serials. I feel like I started a thread about the possibility of Fury being shipped to Nigeria about a year or two ago.
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Post by lousingh on Jun 12, 2018 22:57:00 GMT
Given what Phil Morris has said about prints being sent to places they'd not be bought, I'd not be surprised if a copy of Fury turned up in Nigeria, especially as the serials before and after were sent there and that they don't tend to junk stuff. The same could be true of some of the other missing season 5 serials. I feel like I started a thread about the possibility of Fury being shipped to Nigeria about a year or two ago. I think I remember that. In any event, let's think about this. Assume it did not get to Nigeria, but still exists. When could it have ended up? Come to think of it. Let's try this again with Marco Polo in Canada. What options are there?
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Post by Jon Preddle on Jun 13, 2018 1:34:38 GMT
People are getting tied up due to a misunderstanding of the terminology, and not understanding the processes.
Strictly speaking ALL Doctor Whos were sent to places where they'd not been bought -- because no money was paid to the BBC until *after* an 'agreement to buy' had been made, and an 'agreement to buy' would only be issued once the station had previewed or auditioned the episodes and they'd been classified and cleared by the censors.
Also, TV stations only bought the rights to screen; they didn't buy the film prints themselves . That's quite a significant differentiation to note.
So when it's said that episodes were found in countries that never bought them, then that is to a point true because some countries ultimately didn't buy the rights to screen the serials because of censorship issues, but the film prints still had to be sent to that country for that process to happen.
So the prints were sent, then assessed / censored, and if an 'agreement to buy' was issued, then payment was made to the BBC and the episodes were screened. If no 'agreement to buy' was issued, then the films that the TV station had received but didn't pay the rights for and air were sent back to the BBC, sent somewhere else, or held onto to await further instructions.
This explains why and how Cyprus ended up with Reign of Terror even though they didn't "buy it", and why The Crusade was found in New Zealand even though NZBC didn't buy it.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 13, 2018 2:30:45 GMT
People are getting tied up due to a misunderstanding of the terminology, and not understanding the processes. Strictly speaking ALL Doctor Whos were sent to places where they'd not been bought -- because no money was paid to the BBC until *after* an 'agreement to buy' had been made, and an 'agreement to buy' would only be issued once the station had previewed or auditioned the episodes and they'd been classified and cleared by the censors. Also, TV stations only bought the rights to screen; they didn't buy the film prints themselves . That's quite a significant differentiation to note. So when it's said that episodes were found in countries that never bought them, then that is to a point true because some countries ultimately didn't buy the rights to screen the serials because of censorship issues, but the film prints still had to be sent to that country for that process to happen. So the prints were sent, then assessed / censored, and if an 'agreement to buy' was issued, then payment was made to the BBC and the episodes were screened. If no 'agreement to buy' was issued, then the films that the TV station had received but didn't pay the rights for and air were sent back to the BBC, sent somewhere else, or held onto to await further instructions. This explains why and how Cyprus ended up with Reign of Terror even though they didn't "buy it", and why The Crusade was found in New Zealand even though NZBC didn't buy it. So if episodes that Cyprus didn't buy ended up there, it will be intriguing to see what is contained in this latest batch of Cyprus returns, Jon, if Steve Wright's newsflash turns out to be true.
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Post by Jon Preddle on Jun 13, 2018 3:33:42 GMT
Be careful! If you used the data from my previous post, then it applied to Australia prints only (using existing missing episodes data) - not every country. I've attached a chart depicting what I believe to be the most likely serials in general, not just from Australia. Ignore the numbers; they denote the serial order - not the likeliest serials to return. Still, good work though! Given what Phil Morris has said about prints being sent to places they'd not be bought, I'd not be surprised if a copy of Fury turned up in Nigeria, especially as the serials before and after were sent there and that they don't tend to junk stuff. The same could be true of some of the other missing season 5 serials. Nigeria would not have been sent Warriors or Fury. This has been discussed on this forum before, but in short, sales were made on the basis that as long as a major Commonwealth country (usually Australia) bought a serial first, a minor CW country could acquire it at a much reduced price. (It's all to do with the complex Equity residuals payment structure.) New Zealand was a major Commonwealth country, and it purchased Snowmen, Enemy, Web and Wheel, but it didn't purchase Warriors or Fury. (It did receive the films for assessment, but censorship issues meant they could not screen them, so they didn't purchase the rights.) Since NZ didn't buy or screen Warriors and Fury, there could not be a sale to a minor CW country. But the other four serials could be sold to a minor CW, and that's why Nigeria acquired Snowmen, Enemy, Web and Wheel. Therefore Warriors and Fury would not have been offered to them, and prints would not have been sent there, even for assessment purposes.
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Post by scotttelfer on Jun 13, 2018 14:55:14 GMT
Given what Phil Morris has said about prints being sent to places they'd not be bought, I'd not be surprised if a copy of Fury turned up in Nigeria, especially as the serials before and after were sent there and that they don't tend to junk stuff. The same could be true of some of the other missing season 5 serials. Nigeria would not have been sent Warriors or Fury. This has been discussed on this forum before, but in short, sales were made on the basis that as long as a major Commonwealth country (usually Australia) bought a serial first, a minor CW country could acquire it at a much reduced price. (It's all to do with the complex Equity residuals payment structure.) New Zealand was a major Commonwealth country, and it purchased Snowmen, Enemy, Web and Wheel, but it didn't purchase Warriors or Fury. (It did receive the films for assessment, but censorship issues meant they could not screen them, so they didn't purchase the rights.) Since NZ didn't buy or screen Warriors and Fury, there could not be a sale to a minor CW country. But the other four serials could be sold to a minor CW, and that's why Nigeria acquired Snowmen, Enemy, Web and Wheel. Therefore Warriors and Fury would not have been offered to them, and prints would not have been sent there, even for assessment purposes. The problem there though is why would New Zealand pay the higher rate when Australia had already done so, and if they had paid for this extension why destroy the films after the Australian clearance expired?
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Post by Chris Wilkinson on Jun 13, 2018 16:06:28 GMT
Nigeria would not have been sent Warriors or Fury. This has been discussed on this forum before, but in short, sales were made on the basis that as long as a major Commonwealth country (usually Australia) bought a serial first, a minor CW country could acquire it at a much reduced price. (It's all to do with the complex Equity residuals payment structure.) New Zealand was a major Commonwealth country, and it purchased Snowmen, Enemy, Web and Wheel, but it didn't purchase Warriors or Fury. (It did receive the films for assessment, but censorship issues meant they could not screen them, so they didn't purchase the rights.) Since NZ didn't buy or screen Warriors and Fury, there could not be a sale to a minor CW country. But the other four serials could be sold to a minor CW, and that's why Nigeria acquired Snowmen, Enemy, Web and Wheel. Therefore Warriors and Fury would not have been offered to them, and prints would not have been sent there, even for assessment purposes. The problem there though is why would New Zealand pay the higher rate when Australia had already done so, and if they had paid for this extension why destroy the films after the Australian clearance expired? I think I'm right in saying it's because New Zealand was thought to have been part of a different distribution chain which commonly included Singapore (Australia had exclusive prints), and why keep the films if there were no further purchasers when the broadcasters were contractually obliged to destroy, return or send on to an awaiting country. If no other countries lined up to screen a set of film prints, the films were redundant and either returned or destroyed.
It must also be mentioned that NZ sent Fury and Warriors back to the UK c. 1970 because they were unsuitable for broadcast, so they were likely retained for a future sale to Gibraltar or destroyed upon return.
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Post by scotttelfer on Jun 13, 2018 17:34:58 GMT
The problem there though is why would New Zealand pay the higher rate when Australia had already done so, and if they had paid for this extension why destroy the films after the Australian clearance expired? I think I'm right in saying it's because New Zealand was thought to have been part of a different distribution chain which commonly included Singapore (Australia had exclusive prints), and why keep the films if there were no further purchasers when the broadcasters were contractually obliged to destroy, return or send on to an awaiting country. If no other countries lined up to screen a set of film prints, the films were redundant and either returned or destroyed.
It must also be mentioned that NZ sent Fury and Warriors back to the UK c. 1970 because they were unsuitable for broadcast, so they were likely retained for a future sale to Gibraltar or destroyed upon return.
In this case the Singapore prints were on a different chain from the New Zealand prints. It's possible that BBC Enterprises got their wires crossed, but there's not any particular reason that would have stopped the sale other than BBC Enterprises prematurely pulling them from distribution thinking all copies were already returned or Nigeria having been offered all 36 episodes in the batch rejecting 12 of them.
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Post by Philip C Huish on Jun 13, 2018 17:44:24 GMT
Given what Phil Morris has said about prints being sent to places they'd not be bought, I'd not be surprised if a copy of Fury turned up in Nigeria, especially as the serials before and after were sent there and that they don't tend to junk stuff. The same could be true of some of the other missing season 5 serials. Nigeria would not have been sent Warriors or Fury. This has been discussed on this forum before, but in short, sales were made on the basis that as long as a major Commonwealth country (usually Australia) bought a serial first, a minor CW country could acquire it at a much reduced price. (It's all to do with the complex Equity residuals payment structure.) New Zealand was a major Commonwealth country, and it purchased Snowmen, Enemy, Web and Wheel, but it didn't purchase Warriors or Fury. (It did receive the films for assessment, but censorship issues meant they could not screen them, so they didn't purchase the rights.) Since NZ didn't buy or screen Warriors and Fury, there could not be a sale to a minor CW country. But the other four serials could be sold to a minor CW, and that's why Nigeria acquired Snowmen, Enemy, Web and Wheel. Therefore Warriors and Fury would not have been offered to them, and prints would not have been sent there, even for assessment purposes. Phil Morris said that he'd found that serials had been sent to places where they hadn't been bought (by which I assume that means the right to screen). He also said that serials were sent in blocks to countries regardless as to whether they had bought the rights to all of the serials in the block. Of all the blocks sent I'd be surprised if they broke up the ones which went to Nigeria. Fury and Ice Warriors are the clearest example of this. I may be wrong but I'm going to have to wait until we hear a definitive answer from Phil Morris to know for sure.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 13, 2018 19:14:36 GMT
It's everywhere online now about the collectors having Doctor Who episodes. Just google 'Doctor Who missing episodes' to see. Tenth Planet 4 and DMP 4 get a mention.
I find it interesting that while we have a waiting game with PM (which is fair enough), we also have a similar waiting game with the film collectors. Is there a link with the 2 waiting game situations? Some sort of co-operation in play?
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Post by Jon Preddle on Jun 13, 2018 20:08:21 GMT
The problem there though is why would New Zealand pay the higher rate when Australia had already done so, and if they had paid for this extension why destroy the films after the Australian clearance expired? NZ paid the higher rate because it was classed as a major CW country. I don't understand the second part of your second question.
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Post by Jon Preddle on Jun 13, 2018 20:10:00 GMT
It must also be mentioned that NZ sent Fury and Warriors back to the UK c. 1970 because they were unsuitable for broadcast, so they were likely retained for a future sale to Gibraltar or destroyed upon return. [/p][/quote] That's not correct. NZBC kept the films until late 1974, and at the BBC's request sent them to the landfill -- the same one that The Lion was found in.
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