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Post by adamjordan on Sept 5, 2016 10:23:30 GMT
I wasn't a fan in the 1980s, but AIUI, some pirate VHS copies of serials were extremely degraded after several generations of copies, yet were sought after anyway....... ...........How bad does bad have to get before a) the BBC decide it's not worth their while to release the work; and b) recovery is not possible at all? I remember receiving in the post an umpteenth generation copy of 'The Daleks" in '85. It was really awful to watch. The screen was bleached out, fuzzy and often went wiggly but the sound was what made it unbearable to watch. Each time there was a quiet bit an awful drone would slowly increase in volume until someone spoke then would drop quiet again and so on. I didn't have the audio to that story but I did get the 'Ice Warriors' and 'Tomb of the Cybermen' on audio tape and they were barely listenable to. As for how bad do things need to be. It's an interesting question. With the soundtracks being available for all episodes now, I think most fans would be happy to watch ANY quality, no matter how bad. The quality of the 8mm footage is watchable for me and I'd watch it if it jumped cut,skipped and or went in and out of focus. How such material could be commercially exploited is the question. It couldn't be released in that state as a standalone release so unless there was some sort of 'Lost in Time 2' cache of orphans to bundle it with then it would probably be unlikely to get a release in its raw state (maybe as a DWM magazine promotion as per the Sky at Night episode). But, depending on the damage, the existing footage could be used to inform an animated version which could faithfully replicate what was actually seen either by rotoscoping or by conventional animation.
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RWels
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Post by RWels on Sept 5, 2016 11:20:29 GMT
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Post by scotttelfer on Sept 5, 2016 11:36:35 GMT
What would happen if an episode were found that was in such poor condition that it was impossible to clean it up to the usual standard? The peculiar thing about that is that even a release of poor quality would almost certainly find a market of some sort, because fans have longed after these episodes for so long that I think most of us would shell out even for a bad - perhaps even a very bad - recording. I wasn't a fan in the 1980s, but AIUI, some pirate VHS copies of serials were extremely degraded after several generations of copies, yet were sought after anyway. A good example of how dyed-in-the-wool fans are willing to compromise on recording quality if superior recordings are unavailable is the Steptoe and Son DVD releases. Around a dozen of the episodes from the 1970 and 1971 seasons only exist thanks to recordings made by a BBC engineer on a Shibaden SV-700 reel-to-reel at the request of the writers, who wanted a copy of their work for posterity: eandt.theiet.org/blog/blogpost.cfm?threadid=54239&catid=397I have copies of these, and they're not so bad. But then again, they have been well kept over the years; presumably a recording badly damaged by vinegar syndrome - like the one Mr Morris apparently found of a Pertwee serial somewhere in Africa (?) - would be far worse. How bad does bad have to get before a) the BBC decide it's not worth their while to release the work; and b) recovery is not possible at all? By the sounds of things the unrestorable Morecambe and Wise episode had pretty much turned to mush and was giving off fumes harmful to both humans and other film. That's obviously an extreme case, but gives an idea of just how bad it could get. I wouldn't put it past some people to try all the same (give me a hazmat suit and I'd have a go even to recover half a frame). Doctor Who does have a devoted fan base, so it does have better chances than other material.
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Simon Collis
Member
I have started to dream of lost things
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Post by Simon Collis on Sept 5, 2016 19:56:09 GMT
I wouldn't put it past some people to try all the same (give me a hazmat suit and I'd have a go even to recover half a frame). Doctor Who does have a devoted fan base, so it does have better chances than other material. I believe Paul V did have quite a good go, and I don't expect anybody here would suggest there's much chance of anyone else doing any better..
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Post by scotttelfer on Sept 6, 2016 0:30:59 GMT
I wouldn't put it past some people to try all the same (give me a hazmat suit and I'd have a go even to recover half a frame). Doctor Who does have a devoted fan base, so it does have better chances than other material. I believe Paul V did have quite a good go, and I don't expect anybody here would suggest there's much chance of anyone else doing any better.. And I agree with them. We are incredibly lucky in that regard, as we have heard from Philip Morris other archives and groups even elsewhere in the UK are far behind sadly. There is one thing we can be certain of: no matter what the situation is the material is in the best hands possible and hopefully something can be recovered.
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Post by John Green on Sept 11, 2016 10:16:15 GMT
The way I see it is that Phil Morris is ultra cautious when it comes to making statements about what will and will not be returned soon-that he's aware of.He's finally indicated that there's a mass of returned (non-Who),material,and that Web 3 not only still survives,but will be returned to the BBC soon.It would show a rare belief in the trustworthiness of a third party to tell every classic Who fan that they should expect the unexpected pretty soon.Can you imagine what it would be like to be let down,and then to have to pass on that information? To be known,in some eyes,as the man who promised Web 3-guaranteed it,in fact-and then failed to deliver? I suspect that Phil might not have to rely on Another Gentleman for Web 3,now,and that's why he's shared the information.
I hope.
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Post by andyeves on Sept 11, 2016 14:32:44 GMT
The way I see it is that Phil Morris is ultra cautious when it comes to making statements about what will and will not be returned soon-that he's aware of.He's finally indicated that there's a mass of returned (non-Who),material,and that Web 3 not only still survives,but will be returned to the BBC soon.It would show a rare belief in the trustworthiness of a third party to tell every classic Who fan that they should expect the unexpected pretty soon.Can you imagine what it would be like to be let down,and then to have to pass on that information? To be known,in some eyes,as the man who promised Web 3-guaranteed it,in fact-and then failed to deliver? I suspect that Phil might not have to rely on Another Gentleman for Web 3,now,and that's why he's shared the information. I hope. Phil said at Starburst “But we’re on top of that. That is not going to stay missing for too long. So … we are working on that.” I agree that Phil is typically very cautious about making statements about WIP and for that reason, my gut feel is also that he already has it in his possession. However, if it proves to be the case that he was simply being over-optimistic about a lead that comes to nothing, anyone who believes he has “ promised Web 3-guaranteed” but " failed to deliver" is doing him a big injustice.
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Post by John Green on Sept 11, 2016 15:02:34 GMT
I agree that Phil is typically very cautious about making statements about WIP and for that reason, my gut feel is also that he already has it in his possession. However, if it proves to be the case that he was simply being over-optimistic about a lead that comes to nothing Jos copy or not,Phil would want some tangible evidence-something stronger than a photo of a cardboard-box with 'Web 3 inside' in felt-tip.For him to give any claim credence,he'd surely want screen-shots.For him to pass on the information that it survives,he'd want a very,very strong expectation that it was going to be returned.Personally,I'd be interested,if it was the Jos copy,in getting an explanation of how it came into the hands of the person who was contacting me-though I might be very unlikely to get one! A person getting a conscience? Someone who's now made a copy and is willing to pass it on? Well,I'm willing to start expressing anticipatory gratitude now. Good gosh,all the 2017 Who reference books will be out any day now,and they'll be out of date! (We hope). The bottomish line is that there seems to be no possible harm that we could do to negotiations or outcomes by talking about it like this.(Strokes chin) Interesting... How's Wiped! doing?
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Post by Robert Manners on Jul 10, 2017 22:28:31 GMT
What's the out come here then, was the episode taken to compliment someones private collection or to use as financial leverage on the BBC to pay to get it back so web of fear DVD would be a complete release as enemy of the world was?
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Post by zaqwilson on Jul 11, 2017 14:41:26 GMT
I don't think financial leverage would work; a legal firestorm would likely follow.
Probably taken for a private collection (which there *might* be other missing gems), or taken opportunistically and is now sitting, degrading in somebody's safety-deposit-closet.
Either way, fingers crossed--patience is essential.
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Post by Logan Jutanberg on Jul 11, 2017 20:53:37 GMT
I don't think financial leverage would work; a legal firestorm would likely follow. Probably taken for a private collection (which there *might* be other missing gems), or taken opportunistically and is now sitting, degrading in somebody's safety-deposit-closet. Either way, fingers crossed--patience is essential. Degrading? Really? If someones's gone out of there way to pocket Web 3 for an private collection, chances are that person is taking darn good care of it.
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Post by zaqwilson on Jul 11, 2017 21:24:15 GMT
Spoken jokingly (I hope).
I believe personally it was taken by a collector who will take care of it.... BUT.... it could have been taken by someone knowing nothing about preservation, just taking it for perceived value--keeping it in a nice, warm, airtight, moist, safe place where it can appreciate in value.....
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Post by Greg H on Jul 11, 2017 21:35:15 GMT
I remember receiving in the post an umpteenth generation copy of 'The Daleks" in '85. It was really awful to watch. The screen was bleached out, fuzzy and often went wiggly but the sound was what made it unbearable to watch. Each time there was a quiet bit an awful drone would slowly increase in volume until someone spoke then would drop quiet again and so on. I didn't have the audio to that story but I did get the 'Ice Warriors' and 'Tomb of the Cybermen' on audio tape and they were barely listenable to. Yeah.............. I was part of this generation of VHS collectors too. Some of the stories doing the rounds were of shocking quality! Quite difficult to watch. Many generations removed from the source with all kinds of weird issues. But still we would sit around watching them. I think a couple of the very worst I had were 'the underworld' and 'the invisible enemy'. You had to have a strong constitution to get through those without a stiff drink. My black and whites tended to be fairly decent, comparatively speaking. It may well be that potential recoveries in the future could be beyond retrieval. I believe there have been a few examples of this in the past (not doctor who). The recovered footage from metropolis looked fairly ropey, the restorers still worked miracles all considered, but it didn't really look like a pristine 35mm. If some unplayable who came back, would the fans be able to let it go? I don't know. I have a met a few :/ I suspect if there was some kind of semi moving blur on a grey background, who fans would still watch it, but downloads would probably be the route for such a mashed recovery rather than DVD.
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Post by Greg H on Jul 11, 2017 21:38:30 GMT
Spoken jokingly (I hope). I believe personally it was taken by a collector who will take care of it.... BUT.... it could have been taken by someone knowing nothing about preservation, just taking it for perceived value--keeping it in a nice, warm, airtight, moist, safe place where it can appreciate in value..... It could just have been blagged for imagined financial gain. Hopefully not, but if such a print still exists, it could have been stored absolutely anywhere.
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Post by lousingh on Jul 12, 2017 22:55:40 GMT
Spoken jokingly (I hope). I believe personally it was taken by a collector who will take care of it.... BUT.... it could have been taken by someone knowing nothing about preservation, just taking it for perceived value--keeping it in a nice, warm, airtight, moist, safe place where it can appreciate in value..... It could just have been blagged for imagined financial gain. Hopefully not, but if such a print still exists, it could have been stored absolutely anywhere. I am going to contradict this somewhat. If someone keeps an item around for eventual, perceived financial gain, she/he/I keep it very well guarded, protected, and insulated from any potential hazard; otherwise, it won't accumulate in value. Even though I play a couple of my collectible albums, I still keep them very well tended - and under lock and key inside my house. If I intended to resell them, I would have recorded them long ago so they would never get played.
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