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Post by Shane Anderson on Jan 4, 2014 19:03:55 GMT
I'm watching Doctor Who in order and have just finished the first season, and the thought occurred to me: why are the first two and sixth seasons nearly intact when 3, 4 and 5 are so fragmented? What caused so many early episodes to survive when later ones didn't?
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Post by Deleted on Jan 4, 2014 22:25:36 GMT
I'm pretty sure it's because the first 2 seasons were the most shipped abroad (hence more copies of the episodes were made). Less copies were made of Season 3 and film prints were junked by BBC Enterprises. Season 6 would also be badly affectd if the BFI had not donated The Dominators, The Krotons and The War Games in 1979 (I think that was the date). Also thanks to the Pertwee years being made in colour, those episodes were prevented of being junked. If they were made in black and white I am sure there would be many of seasons 7 8 9 10 and 11 that would no longer be with us. A couple of Pertwee episodes were actually missing. Episode 1 of Invasion of the Dinosaurs and episode 1 of Death to the Daleks. Thankfully they are back with us. |
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Post by Jon Preddle on Jan 5, 2014 0:28:44 GMT
... why are the first two and sixth seasons nearly intact when 3, 4 and 5 are so fragmented? What caused so many early episodes to survive when later ones didn't? AIUI, the first two seasons -- with the exception of the historicals (*) -- were "cleared" so they could be sold to countries in the Commonwealth as well as to the Middle East, Asia and Latin America, whereas the other seasons were "cleared" to be sold only to Commonwealth countries. (* Only The Aztecs was granted full clearance.) BBC Enterprises held onto all those season one and two negatives because they could in effect sell those stories anywhere in the world without having to negotiate clearances on a country by country basis. The original negatives of The Romans, The Ark and The Gunfighters, which were not covered by the "cleared for worldwide sale" arrangement, exist probably because Enterprises simply hadn't got round to junking them by the time the order to stop junking came in 1978. Season Six mostly exists because by 1978, the five year sales period for some of the stories had only just "expired", and the negatives had not yet been junked or given to the BFI. It looks like The Invasion and The Space Pirates were the first to expire, and therefore the first to have their negatives junked. (Though luckily an incomplete set of prints for the Cybermen story was still held...) |
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Post by simonashby on Jan 5, 2014 1:02:02 GMT
Also thanks to the Pertwee years being made in colour, those episodes were prevented of being junked. If they were made in black and white I am sure there would be many of seasons 7 8 9 10 and 11 that would no longer be with us. That's wrong I'm afraid. The fact that they were colour meant nothing at all. The fact you note that IOD 1 was completely missing (until '81 in fact), proves that wrong. It's simply because they were newer and therefore had less time to be completely disposed of by the time the archiving policy changed/came into effect. The Pertwees simply had time on their side. Many Pertwees were missing from the main BBC when the archive was audited in 1978. Foreign stations junked their colour tapes as late as spring '78. It would only have been a matter of time for Enterprises to junk their negs (when sales dried up/rights expired as men tied by Jon), which for many episodes was all that the BBC held at the time/technically today. |
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Post by Shane Anderson on Jan 5, 2014 5:16:11 GMT
... why are the first two and sixth seasons nearly intact when 3, 4 and 5 are so fragmented? What caused so many early episodes to survive when later ones didn't? AIUI, the first two seasons -- with the exception of the historicals (*) -- were "cleared" so they could be sold to countries in the Commonwealth as well as to the Middle East, Asia and Latin America, whereas the other seasons were "cleared" to be sold only to Commonwealth countries. (* Only The Aztecs was granted full clearance.) BBC Enterprises held onto all those season one and two negatives because they could in effect sell those stories anywhere in the world without having to negotiate clearances on a country by country basis. The original negatives of The Romans, The Ark and The Gunfighters, which were not covered by the "cleared for worldwide sale" arrangement, exist probably because Enterprises simply hadn't got round to junking them by the time the order to stop junking came in 1978. Season Six mostly exists because by 1978, the five year sales period for some of the stories had only just "expired", and the negatives had not yet been junked or given to the BFI. It looks like The Invasion and The Space Pirates were the first to expire, and therefore the first to have their negatives junked. (Though luckily an incomplete set of prints for the Cybermen story was still held...) I wondered if season six was "recent" enough when the junkings stopped, and so that explained how much of it survived. I didn't know about the wider sales potential of the first two seasons as a reason for keeping those longer though. And the absence of historicals from that list explains why Marco Polo and part of the Reign of Terror are missing. Thanks for the information, Jon. Much appreciated. |
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Post by Brad Phipps on Jan 5, 2014 7:17:06 GMT
A lot of it was also timely with Ian Levine's trip to Villiers House. We might've lost a few episodes if he'd been a few weeks later.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 5, 2014 18:55:29 GMT
Yes. If the junking had continued, they would have worked their way to Tom Baker's era eventually.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 6, 2014 16:25:25 GMT
Also thanks to the Pertwee years being made in colour, those episodes were prevented of being junked. If they were made in black and white I am sure there would be many of seasons 7 8 9 10 and 11 that would no longer be with us. That's wrong I'm afraid. The fact that they were colour meant nothing at all. The fact you note that IOD 1 was completely missing (until '81 in fact), proves that wrong. It's simply because they were newer and therefore had less time to be completely disposed of by the time the archiving policy changed/came into effect. The Pertwees simply had time on their side. Many Pertwees were missing from the main BBC when the archive was audited in 1978. Foreign stations junked their colour tapes as late as spring '78. It would only have been a matter of time for Enterprises to junk their negs (when sales dried up/rights expired as men tied by Jon), which for many episodes was all that the BBC held at the time/technically today. They had to re colourise a number of Pertwee serials. A couple of colour prints turned up but if the Pertwee era was made in black and white I am sure that a number of those serials would be missing. The Mind of Evil springs to mind as one story that would be missing today if the Pertwee era was made in black and white. I don't think any colour copies have been found. |
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Post by scotttelfer on Jan 6, 2014 17:45:01 GMT
That's wrong I'm afraid. The fact that they were colour meant nothing at all. The fact you note that IOD 1 was completely missing (until '81 in fact), proves that wrong. It's simply because they were newer and therefore had less time to be completely disposed of by the time the archiving policy changed/came into effect. The Pertwees simply had time on their side. Many Pertwees were missing from the main BBC when the archive was audited in 1978. Foreign stations junked their colour tapes as late as spring '78. It would only have been a matter of time for Enterprises to junk their negs (when sales dried up/rights expired as men tied by Jon), which for many episodes was all that the BBC held at the time/technically today. They had to re colourise a number of Pertwee serials. A couple of colour prints turned up but if the Pertwee era was made in black and white I am sure that a number of those serials would be missing. The Mind of Evil springs to mind as one story that would be missing today if the Pertwee era was made in black and white. I don't think any colour copies have been found.
There were black and white copies sold off as per usual to most of the world followed by colour sales to places like the US. I think there were three stories that were never sold in black and white (Inferno and The Daemons are the two that spring to mind but I'm not sure of the other one). It wouldn't have been quite as drastic as you might think but it certainly would have taken a bit of a battering without the US sales (just think what the archives might be like if they had bought some of the Hartnell or Troughton stuff).
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Post by Brad Phipps on Jan 6, 2014 21:20:59 GMT
I may be wrong, but I think that several of the PAL tapes we have are copies that came back from overseas. I think Frontier in Space, for example - doesn't exist on its transmission tape, but as an Enterprises dub. IIRC. Eps 4 and 5 were the only ones that existed. The rest are dubs. Or the other way around. I've got this page on my site but it's out of date. Need to update it. missingepisodes.blogspot.co.nz/p/colour.html |
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Post by PaulF on Jan 7, 2014 2:01:32 GMT
At the end of the day we should be thankful to have as many episodes as we do. I'm just as frustrated as the rest of you that 97 still remain missing - but damn are we better off than some programs which have nothing at all surviving. The fact that 1, 2 and 6 exist almost in their entirety is a blessing from the television gods!
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Post by Brad Phipps on Jan 7, 2014 2:13:15 GMT
And remember, every single episode still exists in audio only...
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Post by Robert Lia on Jan 7, 2014 3:48:15 GMT
I remember back in the early 90's when first the news that audio recordings existed of all the episodes and then the tele snap discovery's followed. We are fortunate to have every episode represented in the archive with at least a sound track
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Post by Deleted on Jan 7, 2014 10:30:45 GMT
At the end of the day we should be thankful to have as many episodes as we do. I'm just as frustrated as the rest of you that 97 still remain missing - but damn are we better off than some programs which have nothing at all surviving. Such as series 1 and 2 of Ace Of Wands, Mystery & Imagination, Colour Me Pop, Sexton Blake, Freewheelers, '60s editions of Public Eye, TOTP, OOTU, Dixon Of Dock Green, Thank Your Lucky Stars and most of the Rediffusion library, for example! Pretty amazing that we have as much of Dr.Who as we do (no thanks to the archives) when you consider what exists of other programmes from the same time. I just wish the existing complete early years stories were spread more evenly between the first two doctors (although the recent finds helped in that respect)!  |
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Post by simonashby on Jan 7, 2014 11:05:46 GMT
They had to re colourise a number of Pertwee serials. A couple of colour prints turned up but if the Pertwee era was made in black and white I am sure that a number of those serials would be missing. The Mind of Evil springs to mind as one story that would be missing today if the Pertwee era was made in black and white. I don't think any colour copies have been found. When the archive was audited in 1978, all bar 2 Pertwee episodes were tracked down from within the BBC. The original negs for the Mind of Evil exist at the BBC and always have done. I really don't understand what you're getting at. It was timing, honest! |
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