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Post by PaulF on Jan 7, 2014 15:20:27 GMT
At the end of the day we should be thankful to have as many episodes as we do. I'm just as frustrated as the rest of you that 97 still remain missing - but damn are we better off than some programs which have nothing at all surviving. Such as series 1 and 2 of Ace Of Wands, Mystery & Imagination, Colour Me Pop, Sexton Blake, Freewheelers, '60s editions of Public Eye, TOTP, OOTU, Dixon Of Dock Green, Thank Your Lucky Stars and most of the Rediffusion library, for example! Pretty amazing that we have as much of Dr.Who as we do (no thanks to the archives) when you consider what exists of other programmes from the same time. I just wish the existing complete early years stories were spread more evenly between the first two doctors (although the recent finds helped in that respect)!  What Doctor Who, thankfully, has is a strong fan-base. This is doing wonders for the stories missing 1 or 2 episodes, especially for Troughton's stories, because the BBC have commissioned the animations of said episodes. It's amazing that stories like 'The Moonbase' and 'The Underwater Menace' are being released in a fully visual format (i.e. not just telesnaps). This does wonders for evening out the episode count, particularly when it comes to numbers of DVDs available; animations might not be the real visual representation, but it's damn wonderful!  |
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Post by Simon B Kelly on Jan 7, 2014 19:02:27 GMT
When the archive was audited in 1978, all bar 2 Pertwee episodes were tracked down from within the BBC. The original negs for the Mind of Evil exist at the BBC and always have done. I really don't understand what you're getting at. It was timing, honest! But they didn't exist on their original broadcast format. The majority were 16mm black and white film copies! Only 55 out of the 128 Pertwee episodes existed on 2" videotape. The 4 episodes of Spearhead from Space only survived because they had been filmed in 16mm colour (presumably the original broadcast version would have been a 2" Quad copy of the final edit?) The other 69 recovered episodes have all been dubs! And, of course, NO original broadcast versions exist for Troughton or Hartnell... |
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Post by simonashby on Jan 7, 2014 20:23:11 GMT
When the archive was audited in 1978, all bar 2 Pertwee episodes were tracked down from within the BBC. The original negs for the Mind of Evil exist at the BBC and always have done. I really don't understand what you're getting at. It was timing, honest! But they didn't exist on their original broadcast format. The majority were 16mm black and white film copies! Only 55 out of the 128 Pertwee episodes existed on 2" videotape. The 4 episodes of Spearhead from Space only survived because they had been filmed in 16mm colour (presumably the original broadcast version would have been a 2" Quad copy of the final edit?) The other 69 recovered episodes have all been dubs! And, of course, NO original broadcast versions exist for Troughton or Hartnell... I know... but we're talking about the possibility of them being lost forever. Whether it's broadcast copy or a sales print is irrelevant, as you imply by mentioning the lack of transmission copy for Hartnell and Troughton... ...But of course some 60s episodes DO exist on their original broadcast format, being in the form of 35mm telerecordings. + Spearhead would have been broadcast from film. No need to transfer to tape. After all, how do you think foreign broadcasters broadcasted their film prints of episodes? |
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Post by johnforbes on Jan 8, 2014 9:05:25 GMT
... why are the first two and sixth seasons nearly intact when 3, 4 and 5 are so fragmented? What caused so many early episodes to survive when later ones didn't? AIUI, the first two seasons -- with the exception of the historicals (*) -- were "cleared" so they could be sold to countries in the Commonwealth as well as to the Middle East, Asia and Latin America, whereas the other seasons were "cleared" to be sold only to Commonwealth countries. (* Only The Aztecs was granted full clearance.) BBC Enterprises held onto all those season one and two negatives because they could in effect sell those stories anywhere in the world without having to negotiate clearances on a country by country basis. The original negatives of The Romans, The Ark and The Gunfighters, which were not covered by the "cleared for worldwide sale" arrangement, exist probably because Enterprises simply hadn't got round to junking them by the time the order to stop junking came in 1978. Season Six mostly exists because by 1978, the five year sales period for some of the stories had only just "expired", and the negatives had not yet been junked or given to the BFI. It looks like The Invasion and The Space Pirates were the first to expire, and therefore the first to have their negatives junked. (Though luckily an incomplete set of prints for the Cybermen story was still held...) I do seem to remember reading that Season 1 and 2 exists primarily because of a very late sale to a country. In which case, had that country not bought it, it could be safe to assume that Season 1 and 2 would not exist in their present forms. |
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Post by Jon Preddle on Jan 9, 2014 1:16:11 GMT
I do seem to remember reading that Season 1 and 2 exists primarily because of a very late sale to a country. In which case, had that country not bought it, it could be safe to assume that Season 1 and 2 would not exist in their present forms. I think that comes down to a misunderstanding surrounding the "late" sale to Algeria which would have been supplied with the limited set of prints dubbed into Arabic, which didn't include every story from season two. |
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Post by Sue Butcher on Jan 10, 2014 6:39:30 GMT
Does anyone have an accurate list of the overseas rights expiry dates for Sixties stories? It was normally five years after the first overseas sale wasn't it?
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Post by Jon Preddle on Jan 10, 2014 8:15:39 GMT
The sales rights for the BBC to sell the blacks and white stuff was five years from first UK airing - so for Unearthly Child it was 22 November 1968. This later got extended to seven years during the Pertwee series.
For the station buying, they purchased the rights to screen stories within a certain period of time, usually three years.
What this means is that even though a serial might be out of its *sales* rights period after five years, it could still be aired beyond that date if a station purchased the *screening* rights towards the end of that five years.
So, An Unearthly Child, its five years period expired on 22 Nov 1968. Timbuktu bought screening rights for three years on 22 Nov 1967, which means they could air it any time until 21 Nov 1970, even though the *sales* rights had expired in 1968.
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Post by Robert Lia on Jan 10, 2014 8:18:22 GMT
But were the sales right to the first few seasons not extended for another 5 years or so. . .. I Cant remember off the top of my head
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Post by Brad Phipps on Jan 10, 2014 8:30:06 GMT
Does anyone have an accurate list of the overseas rights expiry dates for Sixties stories? It was normally five years after the first overseas sale wasn't it? Some were renewed for an additional five years. |
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Post by Sue Butcher on Jan 10, 2014 12:15:49 GMT
Thanks. So the Season 4 and 5 stories returned from the ABC in 1975 would be mostly unusable, unless they were used to supply an existing purchase of screening rights, or the sales rights could be renewed?
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Post by John Wall on Jan 10, 2014 12:23:21 GMT
Thanks. So the Season 4 and 5 stories returned from the ABC in 1975 would be mostly unusable, unless they were used to supply an existing purchase of screening rights, or the sales rights could be renewed? By that time more places had colour - why have b&w Troughton when you can have colour Baker or, possibly, Pertwee ? |
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Post by Sue Butcher on Jan 10, 2014 12:34:31 GMT
Perhaps the old ones were cheaper to buy. Despite the all lovely new stuff on offer, Zambia ran old Troughtons. It wouldn't matter if Pertwee could be had in colour, it would still have to go out in black and white.
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Post by John Wall on Jan 10, 2014 12:37:08 GMT
Perhaps the old ones were cheaper to buy. Despite the all lovely new stuff on offer, Zambia ran old Troughtons. It wouldn't matter if Pertwee could be had in colour, it would still have to go out in black and white. Jon Preddle is probably best to advise but if they had to be recleared the colour ones might be cheaper ? |
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Post by shellyharman67 on Jan 10, 2014 16:26:58 GMT
Perhaps the old ones were cheaper to buy. Despite the all lovely new stuff on offer, Zambia ran old Troughtons. It wouldn't matter if Pertwee could be had in colour, it would still have to go out in black and white. Jon Preddle is probably best to advise but if they had to be recleared the colour ones might be cheaper ? I guess it was a new series and wanted to try it out maybe. And maybe they did not like it lol |
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Post by Jon Preddle on Jan 10, 2014 19:27:39 GMT
I think it came down to "We've got these new ones, and they're in colour, why bother flogging off these old black and white ones".
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