|
|
Post by Stephen Byers on Sept 14, 2018 13:47:39 GMT
Back on topic ...
Darren's analysis appears to be for aired episodes as listed on the current Beeb website presumably from master tapes. Another useful source would be of course Genome. But in recent years maybe the Beeb is short of some episodes and has used Trans Discs to fill the gaps. The possibility of two potential sources, tapes and discs, muddies the analysis.
What we really need is a full listing of items per each episode. These could include first lines of sketches and names of musical links.
I wonder if the BL has listings on Cadensa? Maybe if anyone has a reader's ticket and the spare time it might be possible to listen to all tapes &/or discs and note down their content.
Also I wonder if Keith could help here? He must surely have a spreadsheet of episodes and their contents.
There are caps of airings from previous years. Some OTR sites have caps from 1971/72. Other sites have later recordings. MediaInfo might be able to extract any useful metadata from the respective files.
With regards to the Christmas Special I think that this was included in one of Barry Cryers' "Comedy Greats" episodes. I am assuming that there was only one sich episode. It includes a spoof of the Queen's Christmas Message, as written and delivered by a milkman.
BTW my take on the files at Archive.org is that they are likely all from the same source except for what the uploader now calls S01E01.
|
|
|
|
Post by Stephen Byers on Sept 14, 2018 13:59:00 GMT
From www.britishcomedy.org.uk/comedy/linesforehead.htmlThe Christmas Special included: "Spoof Queen's Christmas Message as written & delivered by a milkman. Courtroom sketch. Office party sketch. 48-year-old muses on whether Santa Claus will still visit (in verse). People wonder what to give each other. Song by Father Christmas. Couple putting their tree up. Dickensian-style song by homeless mother. Elephant delivered as present. Verbose version of 'White Christmas'." Genome has genome.ch.bbc.co.uk/search/0/20?adv=0&q=line+from+grandfather+christmas#searchBBC Radio 4 Friday 24 December 1971 23.15 Ronnie Barker - Lines from my Grandfather Christmas's Forehead. A sequential entertainment for Christmas, also featuring Terence Brady and Pauline Yates, with GORDON LANGFORD at the piano. The lines are contributed by CHRIS ALLEN, JOHN GRAHAM, W. W. MAYNE and LESLIE HARRIS, MICHAEL PALIN, MYLES RUDGE and GORDON LANGFORD, ALLAN SCOTT and CHRIS BRYANT, DYLAN THOMAS, GERALD WILEY. Producer JOHN FAWCETT WILSON (Repeated: tomorrow, 12 noon) (Christmas cover story: page 3) ==== |
|
|
|
Post by darrenlee on Sept 18, 2018 23:31:24 GMT
As is shown by Genome, at least nearly all the episodes were repeated a few days after their first broadcast in a 5-minute shorter form. I have now heard a couple of 25 minute versions (the 'Mr Braithwaite' episode, which is actually s1e4 and not s1e3 as listed on an earlier post, and s2e4), which I guess came from these repeats. The 25-minute s1e4 simply omits one sketch (presumably at least partly written by JHB Peel, whose name has been removed from the credits!). The 25-minute s2e4 episode has the opening piano recital part (and some later incidental music) removed and the coffin sketch moved from well into the programme to the start. The transcription disc makers could have used the episodes as repeated.
|
|
|
|
Post by darrenlee on Sept 18, 2018 23:54:48 GMT
Substantial incidental music is usually identifiable as part of the sketch before or after, so mostly doesn't have its own entries in these lists. Most sketches are identified by first lines, or thereabouts.
s1e1
0.00 I would like to say a few words on the subject of communication
1.31 Intro
2.02 Good morning Mrs Brady - Mr Brady.
3.59 Hello. Enjoying the party?
6.11 My wife doesn't know I've got a mistress
7.17 Well now the game's about to begin
9.37 Joe .. Arsenal .. Kippers .. What?
12.04 I took my love to Turnpike Lane
13.08 Ah, Wills, good, come in.
17.21 One of the most macabre cases in judicial history
28.42 Outro
28.51 Plump, mini-skirted grocer's girl
29.18 Outro continues
s1e2
0.00 Intro
0.35 Message from ship's captain
3.26 Doctor, my memory's going
4.00 Could we just hear the dialogue again, please?
6.50 Looking for a typical English villager
10.10 The laughing tax inspector
11.55 Tea-room meeting with a time-telling clock
16.58 Alliterating 's' poem
18.23 About to resume our musical soiree
27.56 I'm leaving the job
28.37 Outro
s1e3
0.00 Intro
0.30 Today lfmgf is privileged to present an interview
3.10 There are strange things
8.10 My dearest Hermione, will you marry me?
8.30 This place isn't what it used to be
11.32 Well, I'll be off then
11.58 It was a bit busier earlier
15.18 Since I first met you I can't forget you
17.49 Theatre? Oh, yes, I used to go regularly
18.49 Theatre is part of our rich cultural heritage
28.45 Outro
s1e4
0.00 Intro
0.30 Good morning Mr Braithwaite
2.12 Eulogy to Beethoven
3.56 Husband swap
6.20 Four for the road, shod horse
10.16 Singing instructor for birds
11.57 Sir Harold takes callers' questions
16.03 The dawn after the dark
26.45 Bagpipe accompanied Scottish soliloquy
27.49 Three boys standing in the stream
28.39 Outro
s1e5
0.00 You may laugh, Master Marlowe
0.54 Intro
1.29 Audition for MacBeth
4.25 Angus was a hairy Scot
6.00 Buying a teaspoon
9.40 Snow floats upwards down the hill
12.09 A digestive biscuit? Goodbye, Mr Bubbles
18.38 Dreamily, drowsily
19.34 Now tell me your story
22.54 Counting sheep, can't sleep
27.54 i have lived and loved
28.26 Outro
s1e6
0.00 Intro
0.30 Could I have the baby please?
3.26 Now I be a true-bred country chap
5.53 That's the last time I go into the BBC canteen
6.49 You realise this is a language crash course?
10.01 Come in, Mr Shirley
12.33 Young man, what are you doing in here?
16.50 We dream of babbling brooks
27.50 Outro
28.52 My horoscope
s1e7
0.00 Intro
0.35 In the house... Encyclopedia salesman
3.26 Frog in the throat pianist (struggles with incidental music throughout programme)
6.04 My name is Arthur Jones
7.42 Hello Florrie... shopping price comparisons
9.11 There's a sleepy little village
10.23 Let's see how Fulham made out yesterday
15.23 Morning, have a good weekend?
18.32 Special day for the Clegworthy family
28.09 Outro
29.12 Another child, another child
29.41 Pianist gets it right at last, but is out of time
s1e8
0.00 Rambling speech about all that is to be done
1.35 Intro
2.04 I'd like to have one or two details from you
3.33 Cynthia! Charles!
5.32 We've lived in the castle for centuries
8.08 Good morning, this is the Garden of Eden?
11.53 I search for blossom in life's garden
12.58 The doctor will see you now
17.46 Death of Arnold Baker
27.55 Poem with all rhymes with village
28.25 Outro
s1esp
0.00 A Christmas message from your milkman
1.45 Intro
2.15 Silence in court! (Christmas card oath)
2.43 Ah, there you are, Pettigrew (office party)
5.57 I wonder if old Santa Claus will visit me
6.54 I am a husband wondering what to give my wife
8.00 Conditions for motoring are not very nice
9.10 Ah, darling, our first Christmas in our own home
12.22 Hear the bells a-ringing?
15.15 George, do go and get ready, they'll be here soon
18.15 I am envisaging a lactescent Yuletide
20.10 Of course, Christmases aren't what they used to be
22.05 One Christmas was so much like another
23.25 outro
s2e1
0.01 Albert Hall piano move
1.25 Intro
1.58 What are whip-poor-wills?
3.51 Good morning, can I help you, sir?
5.29 I'm a hurdy-gurdy man
7.21 Dearly beloved, we are gathered here
9.10 Down wind-blown arthritic streets
13.49 I haven't been out with a girl for years
16.09 You never talk to me
17.42 In the footprints of history
28.24 Outro
s2e2
0.01 Improvement grants
1.37 Intro
2.06 (Door bell rings) Just coming!
4.34 After Leeds you take the M1
6.14 An innocent maid came to London
9.46 I've met many famous people
13.07 Life on the whole around the North Pole
14.06 Can you manage all right under the sink?
17.57 If you don't stop it this minute
28.11 No traffic light to halt his flight
28.33 Outro
s2e3
0.00 Intro
0.32 Paul Chapel and the Squalid Affair
3.44 School speech by minister of education
6.34 Darling, are you comfortable?
9.28 Oh blow out the light beloved
10.28 Phone not working
13.20 Wrong-way family favourites
14.08 Nice sitting in the conservatory
20.08 The train now standing
21.25 Singing through the forests
24.17 When I sit in railway carriages
25.13 Will you be having the full breakfast?
28.18 Singing through the forests reprise
28.30 outro
s2e4
0.00 For those of you waiting by the radio to tune your violin
2.49 Intro
3.18 Gordon Langford continues his piano recital
3.43 Oh, Amanda, you've never looked lovelier
5.38 So that's 16 and a half faults
5.56 It's awfully bad luck on Diana
7.15 Oh, Alphonse loves Lisa
8.14 Can I help you? I want to buy a coffin
11.37 Music
13.01 Would you like me to make a cup of tea dear?
14.10 We present Scrapbook for Nineteen Thirty-thrim
28.37 Outro
s2e5
0.00 Some of the exciting things later this evening
0.38 Intro
1.13 Come along now ladies and gentlemen
2.48 Pardon me, mac
6.15 Hello, nice day
7.24 As I walked home on a summer night
9.14 And at this point in the programme
10.20 The frame is contemporary
13.55 Sing me no songs of Arabee
16.12 Ah, good morning Mrs Tribbling
21.54 I am the minister for population
23.53 Wake up! (baby is quiet)
28.30 Outro
s2e6
0.01 Right lads, i want you to go straight into the attack
0.52 Intro
1.20 Silence please, gentlemen
3.11 I should never have played this piece
5.09 Goodbye my dear, I must away
7.39 In a far away country
9.55 Cheers, old boy. Nice little pub.
10.50 Here we are then, sir
13.21 To the editor, Readers' Moans
18.19 The programme's finished, switch it off, switch it off
19.43 We present the great eccentrics
28.29 Outro
s2e7
0.01 Intro
0.35 He seemed to have so much to say into his neighbour's ear (ssh!)
1.13 She's said to be the world's greatest
2.33 Gentlemen, you are determined on this duel?
5.55 'Twas the day of the gravedigger's wedding
8.19 Now, gentlemen, I have called this meeting
10.59 People say that love is here to stay
12.48 Here? What? You know that woman?
15.00 Silence, please! Silence! (using a lot of words)
16.52 Fancy places that cost the earth
23.14 To be or ... er ...
24.43 In olden Scandinavia
28.13 When the curtain goes down at the end of the play
28.52 Outro
s2e8
0.00 Intro
0.36 Come in! Ah, come in Mr Brown.
2.35 Be a man if you can
4.06 Right lad, so you want to join the army
6.32 Hello, can you hear me? It's Eddie.
9.06 Thus, as the lonely midnight hour did strike
12.46 Now, shall we look at the pretty pictures
14.20 It was a fabulous holiday
16.31 We present the 112th edition
28.34 Outro
|
|
|
|
Post by Stephen Byers on Sept 19, 2018 12:18:37 GMT
Wow - great work. Many thanks for listing the episodes and sketches.
I guess that these are all as per the episodes on Archive.org
There may be three versions of each episode - one from master tapes in full (30 mins), one from master tapes cut to 25 mins as 'repeats', and one from the edited trans discs also at 25 mins.
Identifying the different recordings is a long job - there's such a mixture of versions out there.
I wonder if there's been two versions of the Christmas Special - a long and a shorter version?
|
|
|
|
Post by darrenlee on Sept 19, 2018 13:47:28 GMT
As far as I can compare the episodes on archive.org and as broadcast by 7/4Extra are the same, near enough. They are 30 minute episodes and those are the basis for the list of sketches above. All I know about the 25 minute long repeats comes from Genome (i.e. that they exist) and two low-bitrate examples that Stephen linked (which, as I said, I am just guessing are recordings of the repeats) and which I described above. The repeat episodes might be the same as trans discs, but that's just speculation.
At first sight it's alarming that the Christmas Special is 5 minutes shorter than the others on archive.org, but Genome shows it broadcast only in 25 minute slots (including its first broadcast), so I believe this episode only ever existed in 25 minute form and is 5 minutes shorter than all the others.
|
|
|
|
Post by Stephen Byers on Sept 19, 2018 16:20:28 GMT
I have tracked down another version of the Christmas Special. It was aired by Barry Cryer on one of his Comedy Greats series - Christmas. Unfortunately no-one I know actually has this Barry Cryer special!!
|
|
|
|
Post by darrenlee on Sept 19, 2018 16:34:59 GMT
There was an episode in at least the following 5 three-hour shows:
Arnold Brown Comedy controller 12/6/04
Barry Cryer Comedy Greats '70s pt2 23/10/04
The One Ronnie with Barry Cryer 2/9/06
Barry Cryer's Comedy Greats Christmas Selection Box pt 1 18/12/04
Sue Perkins's Christmas comedy stocking 16/12/06
The last two were the Christmas episode, of course! I don't know what the other 3 were.
|
|
|
|
Post by darrenlee on Sept 19, 2018 17:02:32 GMT
OK, and the Sue Perkins programme was broadcast as recently as 17/12/2016, so I wasn't mad thinking I'd heard the Christmas episode recently-ish.
|
|
|
|
Post by Stephen Byers on Sept 19, 2018 20:44:50 GMT
Barry Cryer Comedy Greats '70s pt2 23/10/04 included LFMGF S01E04 (March 1971)
0.00 Intro
0.30 Good morning Mr Braithwaite
2.12 Eulogy to Beethoven
3.56 Husband swap
6.20 Four for the road, shod horse (included)
10.16 Singing instructor for birds
11.57 Sir Harold takes callers' questions
16.03 The dawn after the dark
26.45 Bagpipe accompanied Scottish soliloquy
27.49 Three boys standing in the stream
28.39 Outro
|
|
|
|
Post by Stephen Byers on Sept 19, 2018 21:42:10 GMT
OK, and the Sue Perkins programme was broadcast as recently as 17/12/2016, so I wasn't mad thinking I'd heard the Christmas episode recently-ish. Hmm - appears that are two versions of this special. The original and the edited for including in a seasonal compilation. But the quality of what's around of this episode is poor in that some of the sketches are over-loaded with music and the speech cannot be heard clearly. |
|
|
|
Post by darrenlee on Sept 20, 2018 9:13:13 GMT
Barry Cryer's Comedy Greats Christmas Selection Box pt 1 is currently very easy to find with a simple search (even I can find it). The quality is fine, so there's no problem that the BBC don't hold a good recording. The mystery is that the last sketch (a spoof of 'A Child's Christmas in Wales') has been edited out in this version, and correspondingly mention of Dylan Thomas in the writing credits has been cut. I've also checked Sue Perkins' Christmas Comedy Stocking, and it's this same edited 23min15s version used. Why? Programme timing? Somebody's idea of improving the programme? Objections from Dylan Thomas's estate? Incompetence?
|
|
|
|
Post by Ed Brown on Sept 21, 2018 14:21:12 GMT
Here is some additional information.
These are dates of some recent repeats on Radio 4 Extra, with details of which episode the station claimed each to be -
Lines From My Grandfather's Forehead - s01e02 - 1971-02-22 [2017-03-14]
Lines From My Grandfather's Forehead - s01e04 - 1971-03-08 [2017-03-21]
Lines From My Grandfather's Forehead - s01e05 - 1971-03-15 [2017-03-28]
Lines From My Grandfather's Forehead - s01e06 - 1971-03-22 [2017-04-04]
Lines From My Grandfather's Forehead - s01e07 - 1971-03-29 [2017-04-11]
Lines From My Grandfather's Forehead - s01e08 - 1971-04-05 [2017-04-18]
Lines From My Grandfather's Forehead - s01e08 - 1971-04-05 [2015-09-13]
Lines from My Grandfather Christmas's Forehead - 1971-12-24 [2016-12-17] (23'16")
(I suspect source is: Sue Perkins Christmas Comedy Stocking, Part 1 [2016-12-17])
Lines From My Grandfather's Forehead - s02e01 - 1972-07-09 [b008kmjv] 2016-01-31
Lines From My Grandfather's Forehead - s02e02 - 1972-07-16 [b00hk08q] 2016-02-07
Lines From My Grandfather's Forehead - s02e03 - 1972-07-23 [b00hm5fb] 2016-02-14
Lines From My Grandfather's Forehead - s02e05 - 1972-08-06 [b00yhx4x] 2016-02-21
Lines From My Grandfather's Forehead - s02e06 - 1972-08-13 [b00hs9cb] 2016-02-28
Lines From My Grandfather's Forehead - s02e07 - 1972-08-20 [b00j0gjc] 2016-03-06
Lines From My Grandfather's Forehead - s02e08 - 1972-08-27 [b00j2dc3] 2016-03-13
I can offer the following suggestion regarding the duration of the Christmas special in 1971.
Barry Cryer's Christmas Selection Box - Part 1 [b005ckbm] was first broadcast on Radio 7 in December 2003, so the edit in it of this programme dates from not later than 2003. At that point in time, the station was only just getting started, and copyright clearances were not so easy to obtain - because absolutely everything was having to be cleared, masses of stuff, as none of the shows had aired on the station before. This was their first christmas on air.
Any piece of music in a sketch might prevent a clearance being obtained in time for the broadcast, not simply the script for the dialogue.
Thereafter, there was no incentive to re-visit copyright clearance 5 years later, at the time of the next airing of the Barry Cryer programme, as it's assumed already cleared. So the dropped sketch gets overlooked, and later someone else lifts the 'LFMGFCF' segment out of this special, and shoves it into Sue Perky's christmas special, since it's already been cleared, never knowing there is an edit in it.
A gentle reminder to 4 Extra or Keith Wickham, and they might review the point, once notified of what has happened, as it was likely only an oversight that the omission never got fixed.
|
|
|
|
Post by Ed Brown on Sept 21, 2018 15:08:52 GMT
OK, and the Sue Perkins programme was broadcast as recently as 17/12/2016, so I wasn't mad thinking I'd heard the Christmas episode recently-ish. Hmm - appears that are two versions of this special. The original and the edited for including in a seasonal compilation. But the quality of what's around of this episode is poor in that some of the sketches are over-loaded with music and the speech cannot be heard clearly. I think perhaps the sketch you may be thinking of is the one in which Ronnie B complains that Christmases aren't what they used to be, and the joke is that each time the attention cuts away from his remarks to a traditionally christmassy scene, such as carole singers, the (quiet) traditional activities get drowned out by the bedlam of modern life (a blaring British Rail station announcer's tannoy, a jet plane roaring overhead, etc). |
|
|
|
Post by Stephen Byers on Sept 21, 2018 17:33:22 GMT
Ed - thank you for the list of recent Radio 4 Extra airings. However there are two possibilities for these - that can only be ascertained by listening to each one. Were they 30 minute episodes, &/or were some the 25 minute 'repeat' versions. The latter would have one sketch or maybe a musical link cut out. Both versions would have dated from 1971/72.
However it would be unlikely that these airings came from transcription discs.
As an aside there is a third option for recordings - those on CDs as sold by BBC Enterprises (or whomsoever). Were sketches ever cut out or re-ordered for these?
|
|
