|
Post by Wright Blan on Aug 31, 2005 4:22:13 GMT
I make an educated guess that Ian and Paul both probably know how to handle fragile material like film and video tape. Funny, I thought those skills would be very relevant to physically searching an archive. How are they susposed to search an archive in New Zealand, by remote viewing? To physically search an archive in a professional manner, you need the skills and knoledge on how to handle fragile material, don't you? But that's precisely what *is* being suggested - that fans be allowed access the archive to search through the material available. And how many fans are there who are trained in the use of Steinbecks and broadcast video equipment and who are willing to give up months, if not years of their lives searching through material even if they were allowed? Not many, I think it's safe to say! And as Brad quite rightly indicates, ploughing through archives trying to find material that you don't even know is there in the first place can be horrendously boring after a while. I've done it often enough to know! ;D Richard If the searcher has the patience to do it, who knows? He might actually find something that was believed to be gone for good.
|
|
|
Post by Wright Blan on Aug 31, 2005 4:24:52 GMT
I thought I would take this opportunity to say " thanks Ian , for taking this request to a higher power, and for the fans of the classic era of Doctor Who." I think this is a really positive development, that operation Go and look has made it to the ears of the BBC. Good luck in your search of TVNZ, I only wish I could be there with you. Lance. And I only wish you could be down here in Georgia, Lance, to see UGA spank Boise St.
|
|
|
Post by Richard Bignell on Aug 31, 2005 9:16:32 GMT
Funny, I thought those skills would be very relevant to physically searching an archive. How are they susposed to search an archive in New Zealand, by remote viewing? To physically search an archive in a professional manner, you need the skills and knoledge on how to handle fragile material, don't you? You're rather missing the point here, Wright. The fact that Paul and Ian are on the other side of the planet from the NZTV archive makes it somewhat difficult for them to physically search an archive themselves. That being the case, whatever skills they possess in the UK doesn't enter into the equation as they're not going to be the ones doing this supposed searching! Richard
|
|
|
Post by Graham Howard on Aug 31, 2005 9:58:18 GMT
I'd like to offer some observations on Jeff's proposal (Hi Jeff!) I'm not wanting to pour cold water on the idea, but just provide some facts that will hopefully help people grasp the magnitude of what would is being suggested.
Can I first clarify and correct some comments made by Jeff about my original search:
* Unlike what is being suggested here, I didn't search TVNZ's own holdings of programmes, only the overseas material that TVNZ were holding on behalf of overseas distributors at the time. * Getting permission to get access to these films was given only after having slowly and patiently built up the trust of the relevant staff over a period of years. It took years before approval was finally given. * There were several thousand of these films, mostly American, some had been catalogued most hadn't * I spent two days inspecting every film can of those that weren't catalogued. * As I've said before, these same overseas films were subsequently gifted to the NZ Film Archive shortly after I went through them. NZFA kept some, and disposed of the remainder. No Doctor Who among them!
I have visited TVNZ's (quite) new Television Archive a few times now (coincidentally I was there with Jon Preddle just last Monday). Note that 99.999% of the holdings are New Zealand films. I'm aware that the handful of overseas BBC shows they do hold were offered to the BBC, but were not required by them, since they already held the episodes.
The Archive is run as a commercial operation and there are no "junk piles" of stuff lying around as Jeff seems to think! They have many thousands of hours of material all catalogued and archived - apparently it would take someone well over 20 years to sit through and watch the entire archive holding non-stop. There are also 20 kilometres of filing track! (although not all is in use yet). The entire operation is described as "state of the art" and includes a sophisticated database query system with free text searching - in fact shot lists for every single programme in the archive have been compiled, so they have no need for help cataloguing!
I'd note also that the Archive is extremely security conscious and takes very seriously their role of being a "safe place" for the storage of the many unique and irreplaceable items comprising New Zealand's television history. Visiting is only by invitation or appointment. I believe even TVNZ's own staff can't just go in and get whatever they want - access to the Vaults is restricted to Archive staff. I am quite sure they would never let anyone off the street handle the archive's collection in the way proposed unless there was a very powerful overriding reason to do so.
For these reasons, I don't believe viewing everything in there is realistic. If you still think it is worth a shot and are seriously prepared to spend the time, (and move to Wellington?!) then ask away. Maybe I'm wrong, but I can only stress that on current knowledge, there is simply no reason to suppose that missing Doctor Who episodes or anything else that is missing is held in their Vaults.
Although we may hope there are still be missing episode gems surviving somewhere in New Zealand, it seems to me that the fate of Doctor Who episodes in New Zealand, at least in terms of official processes, is to date one of the most, if not the most, well-researched and documented of any country to buy Doctor Who. Something more may yet turn up some time but I would think there must be other countries about which much less is known that would be better prospects.
Graham Howard
PS. One possibility, albeit a small one, is that clips from Doctor Who could have been inserted into other New Zealand programmes, and that is basically what we wanted to check out on Monday in relation to a particular programme Jon had some information on.
|
|
|
Post by Brad Phipps on Aug 31, 2005 21:29:41 GMT
^ So ends 'Operation: Gone & Looked'.
|
|
|
Post by Jeff Stone on Sept 2, 2005 9:25:29 GMT
Essex: You are right. They won't tell me to f**k off if I ask in the way I intend to...politely, with care taken to address concerns about copyright, handling of material etc. If they say no, fine. Even then, it might make them think to do a check themselves. Thank you to you and others who have at least said 'Give it a try'. That's all I ever wanted to do. The negativity of others is best left ignored. 'Impossible' and 'unrealistic' are words used by people with small minds. It was 'impossible' to travel faster than sound. It was 'unrealistic' to believe that the Soviets would beat America into space. It is NOT impossible or unrealistic that someone in TVNZ would say.....'Yes, OK, you can look if we supervise'.
I am now sick and tired of the topic. Argue about it if you like, I don't care any longer.
Jeff (wishes he'd never opened his stupid mouth)
|
|
|
Post by Clive Shaw on Sept 2, 2005 11:19:42 GMT
It is NOT impossible or unrealistic that someone in TVNZ would say.....'Yes, OK, you can look if we supervise'. Using that logic then of course, nothing is impossible or unrealistic. But with Grahams very informative description as to the current status of TV NZ archives and the work which has undergone with archiving and cataloging, then if I had time to spend, I would concentrate on other TV archives which are less known or understood. If TVNZ seem to have a complete understanding of what is left in their archives, then lets 'Go and Look' elsewhere, perhaps ?
|
|
|
Post by Sam on Sept 2, 2005 17:27:56 GMT
Give the guy a break - We all want to see them back in the archive.
My advice Jeff - Give it a shot - if they say no, nothing lost nothing gained, if they say yes, the rewards could be astounding. Maybe the Dr. Whos have gone, but there is bound to be something hidden away.
|
|
|
Post by Clive Shaw on Sept 2, 2005 18:38:12 GMT
Yes, but.... I have no (or should have) opinion on what questions people ask to whom. But if Jeff wants results then why not ask Hong Kong's archive ?
I am not trying to put anyone off anything, but if TVNZ is already fully cataloged, then why not put energies where it is not ?
Otherwise this is just going to go round in circles
|
|
|
Post by Essex Bluenose on Sept 2, 2005 20:40:15 GMT
Jeff, assuming you are still going to ask, here s another positive suggestion. Explain what you propose and why, then ask that if the reply is to be "no" then reasoning behind such a response could be given. This might elicit helpful suggestions as to how searches (and requests to search) might be done.
Done properly, you will at the very least understand what is possible and what is not.
Good luck whatever you do.
|
|
|
Post by Clive Shaw on Sept 2, 2005 21:04:43 GMT
Why are you all ignoring Grahams response above ?
What will make you leave TVNZ alone and move on to another broadcaster ??
Why are you certain that TVNZ still have something of interest ?
I am not criticising anyone, just, interested in the reasoning, that's all.......
|
|
|
Post by James Phillips on Sept 2, 2005 21:52:31 GMT
Why are you all ignoring Grahams response above ? What will make you leave TVNZ alone and move on to another broadcaster ?? Why are you certain that TVNZ still have something of interest ? I am not criticising anyone, just, interested in the reasoning, that's all....... I think it's the old "if we wish hard enough it'll come true" line... Nothing to see here, move along please...
|
|
|
Post by Jon Preddle on Sept 3, 2005 0:10:53 GMT
Why are you all ignoring Grahams response above ? What will make you leave TVNZ alone and move on to another broadcaster ?? Why are you certain that TVNZ still have something of interest ? I am not criticising anyone, just, interested in the reasoning, that's all....... As Graham noted in his posting, he and I went to the TVNZ Archives on Monday. It was like Fort Knox - with air-lock doors, combination lock key-pads, etc. Only those with swipe-cards can get through even the main doors! We had to ring through on a red phone and wait in the lobby until someone let us in! All very Bond-esque high-tech security! While there we asked one of the librarians all the pertinent questions. He was very open and forthright with his answers. And very very helpful. He went to their compute database to check up on some of the items were were after - and he even went out of his way to widen the search criteria we had given him. This was good service in my book. Sadly there was no record of what we were after. Graham and I know what we are doing. It's a matter of slowly building up trust. But we certainly haven't given up looking though. These things take time and patience - and knowing where - and how! - to look. Jon Jon
|
|
|
Post by jamie mccrimmon on Sept 3, 2005 11:16:04 GMT
I've read through nearly every single one of the posts on this thread. Jeff - if you're still here - I think you should give it a try. If you don't try then there isn't a chance. Even if they said no, it might light a bulb in someone's mind and they'll think, "Why don't we see if there's some guys who are actually trained to do this, that would be willing to have a look?" There's no harm in trying!
|
|
|
Post by Neil Lambess on Sept 3, 2005 14:08:27 GMT
Unfortunatly Jeff TVNZ put most of those film prints (about 10,000) into two shipping containers on the seatoun warves in wellington in the late 80s or thereabouts.......
around 1994 they had the NZ film archive go through them and remove anything that was NZ related and the archive was under strict orders to destroy the remainder ( I was told by a reliable source that people on a govt work scheme did a lot of the sorting...but another reliable source told me it was mostly staff from the NZ Film archive.....)
they recovered quite a bit of stuff then destroyed the rest, now before we get too upset 10,000 film prints ISNT a lot in terms of the total output of a TV station (its just over a years worth if they showed say 25 shows a day from 16mm).......but all the same it is tempting to wonder what was in there..... (I have it on good authority that quite a few 16mm prints of cinema released movies were in there, a lot of NZBC/TVNZ archival footage was found )
Sadly the reason they were stuck in shipping containers in the first place was probably partially due to the number of doctor who fans who were starting to bug TVNZ about them at the time........
having said that stuff did go "walkies "......
|
|