How likely that any more missing epidoes turn up?

[Matt Fenn]

Hi all, I have just been reading a number of sources, even threads in this forum and it 16mm film prints of even existing Dr Who are very rare - then how likely is it that any collectors are going to have a lost one? I hate to sound pesimistic (think that's how you spell it) but the only way that I think it might be likely that missing episodes exist are abroad in TV stations - even then, why should they return them (in their minds)? as the BBC chucked them years ago. Please somebody tell me how likely as I have just lost hope!

Matt

[Steven Sigel]

Not very likely at this point, but not impossible....

[ethantyler]

Highly unlikely, in my opinion. The evidence speaks for itself really. The post-eighties recoveries are:

1991: The Tomb of the Cybermen 1-4.

1992: Death to the Daleks 1 (PAL)

1995: The Dominators 5 (unedited)

1999: The Crusade 1

2004: The Daleks' Master Plan 2

I think we'll only ever see one or two more episodes returned, if that. I'm sure quite a few still exist, but I doubt they'll ever be recovered before they're destroyed. However, I feel sure that we will see the recovery of at least further clips. There have been a lot of clips recovered in the past decade, some of which are absolutely stunning.

[Ash Stewart]

I think we will be very lucky if we get the number of missing episodes down into double figures.

By the same token, I think I will be very lucky if I win £23,000,000 on the lottery.

Both are unlikely, but possible...

[ethantyler]

There are also other factors to consider, such as, for example, there being more surviving episodes than missing episodes, which means any episodes returned are more likely to already exist, such as the discovery of The Space Pirates 2. If you see what I mean.

Does anyone know if the BBC ever receive or are offered redudant Doctor Who episodes from collectors, overseas archives or other sources? I know The Expedition was returned IN 2004, but that doesn't count as Day of Armageddon was with it.

I think the most likely source of missing episode recoveries is probably overseas archives, although, again, that's frustratingly unlikely. Private collectors and mislabelled film cans are an option too, but even more unlikely. And I won't go into off-air video recordings and chance discoveries...

[Wright Blan]

You know, I've seen too many Antiques Roadshows to think that there aren't any more missing episodes out there. There are just too many chances that people have stuff in their homes that they have no clue what the stuff is worth.

[ethantyler]

Wright said:

You know, I've seen too many Antiques Roadshows to think that there aren't any more missing episodes out there. There are just too many chances that people have stuff in their homes that they have no clue what the stuff is worth.

The problem is that if they're not taking care of the films, then they're going to deteriorate. Also, just how likely is it that missing episodes did end up on the market, so to speak? We know that at least some did, but I shouldn't think that a great number of episodes that don't already exist did. Having said that, I never in my wildest dreams thought I'd ever see another episode of The Daleks' Master Plan - that was truly a miracle!

[Doran Steele]

ethantyler said:

2004: The Daleks' Master Plan 2

Since your list includes the return of both missing and non-missing episodes, I'd like to point out that the 2004 return was actually two episodes. The other one was from the serial B The Mutants (later renamed The Daleks). Not that this detail detracts from your point that it is unlikely to find more Doctor Who episodes.

The problem is that past finds are not a good indication of the likelihood future finds. The past 15 years has had a fairly steady trickle of Doctor Who finds if you look at both the complete episodes, the clips and the telesnaps--every couple years someone finds something. Some day we're going to exhaust the supply of existing unfound Doctor Who material. Maybe it has already happened. Or maybe the finds will continue. Since we don't have the most important piece of information--how much material was scattered out there in the first place--there is no way of knowing definitively when we've found all that we're going to. Personally, I'm going to be convinced that we're not going to find any more when there haven't been finds of any kind for a significant period of time--let's say 20 years.

[ethantyler]

Doran said:

Since your list includes the return of both missing and non-missing episodes, I'd like to point out that the 2004 return was actually two episodes. The other one was from the serial B The Mutants (later renamed The Daleks). Not that this detail detracts from your point that it is unlikely to find more Doctor Who episodes.

The two existing episodes I listed were significant finds rather than redudant. The Dominators 5 was unedited (the BBC previously only held an edited copy) and Death to the Daleks 1 was in PAL format (the BBC previously only held an NSTL format copy). I suppose they're the equivalent of The Faceless Ones 3, The War Machines 3 or Planet of the Daleks 3 resurfacing today. Maybe not the latter though.

The problem is that past finds are not a good indication of the likelihood future finds. The past 15 years has had a fairly steady trickle of Doctor Who finds if you look at both the complete episodes, the clips and the telesnaps--every couple years someone finds something. Some day we're going to exhaust the supply of existing unfound Doctor Who material. Maybe it has already happened. Or maybe the finds will continue. Since we don't have the most important piece of information--how much material was scattered out there in the first place--there is no way of knowing definitively when we've found all that we're going to. Personally, I'm going to be convinced that we're not going to find any more when there haven't been finds of any kind for a significant period of time--let's say 20 years.

I agree that past finds are not proof that more episodes won't turn up in the future, but they do give a good indication. If you put all the negative factors together alongside the positive, it does seem highly unlikely that anymore episodes will resurface. However, as the Doctor Who Gateway and the return of Day of Armageddon suggest, the unexpected can and has happened and could happen again. The problem with Doctor Who missing episodes (over other missing series) is that a lot of time, effort and money has been put into searching for the episodes over the years whereas very little effort has been put into searching for other series by comparison.

[Brad Phipps]

I'm hopeful we'll find more.

Not sure when, where or how much, but still hopeful.

And I hope I'm involved.

[Laurence Piper]

It's not possible to say that no more episodes will turn up, any more than it's possible to say that they definitely will though. Missing TV in general trickles back to the archives at a steady pace all the time - it never seems to end, in fact. Of course, as time goes on, in order to locate more missing stuff, people will need to dig deeper below the surface (as all the more obvious sources are exhausted). But things turn up in unexpected places and ways - time after time - confounding the sceptics.

Who's to say if more DW will turn up specifically though? I believe more is out there myself; I think it stands to reason as we have no idea what X persons unknown are storing in sheds, houses etc all over the country and beyond (and some of this material will either eventually rot / be thrown out / deliberately held on to for selfish reasons or the owner being totally unaware of it's value). I also think that more gold is still to be found in unchecked archives around the world (and there must be quite a few of those)...

[William Martin]

And as time goes on and all the best options are gone, slim chances will be all we have left.

[ianj]

I agree with Ian Levines earlier post; people like Ian are better positioned for searching Tv archives.......................I dont think we will find any more WHO in the U.K.; but abroad..........and it needs to be NOW, as many archives are copying redundant formats onto newer media, and as they do this, they will be JUNKING hoards of tape and film, especially if they try it and its deteriorated, and needs working on.........................they wont bother. In the skip.................................................ianj

[Ash Stewart]

william said:

And as time goes on and all the best options are gone, slim chances will be all we have left.

Will be...? Slim chances *are* all we have left...

[William Martin]

ash said:

william said:

And as time goes on and all the best options are gone, slim chances will be all we have left.

Will be...? Slim chances *are* all we have left...

couldn't have put it better myself