Thames TV the first 3 years

[Anthony Harvison]

To start the ball rolling on this one - The opening night of Thames appears to be completely missing. For a period running from thereabouts up until 1971, with the exceptions of 'Two Ds and a dog' and 'elephants eggs in a rhubarb tree' the thames childrens TV archive is largely depleted. From then 71 - 72 the archive is generally, to my knowledge very comprehensive.

I only know of two items in existance in exclusively in T-R form from this early Thames period. These are two Philip Elsmore links circa 1969, and 'do not adjust your stocking'. Of 'Ace of Wands' I believe 4 or so oddment episodes from series 3 exist as T-Rs. What occured to me was that if the majority of Thames first three years had been actuallt transferred to Film, then lost, i.e. not junked it might explain a strange gap for an otherwise quite notably comprehensive archivist of itws own product ?

[lpmoderator]

I've wondered about this myself. There is so little t/r around of Thames material (and LWT as well), although they must have been made for sales purposes - at least for some of the output. Thames material that exists seems to be almost all on VT, as with LWT. The '68 - '71 period is notable by it's untypically large gaps, whereas other ITV companies that also started at that same point (e.g. Yorkshire) don't have that same hole in their archive.

As well as the things you mention, there were also things like Do Not Adjust Your Set, Sexton Blake (both shows inherited from Rediffusion but continued with freshly made editions by Thames themselves) and The Queen Street Gang.

[Simon Winters]

Some b/w 1968-71 Thames shows are out on dvd, of course.

Channel 4 broadcast 'Do Not Adjust Your Stocking' from Xmas '68, some years ago.

Bootlegs of 'Mystery and Imagination' and b/w 'Callan' are readily available. (Thames idents but ABC vt clocks!).

I'm sure that no recording of the first day of Thames survives, as there is was nothing shown of that in the extensive 'Thames21' season in 1989. I think most of that day was cancelled due to strike action anyway.

A sound recording of a Thames TV trailer from their first week is available is on one of the tv websites.

There is also the b/w 1969 Thames invision clip with David Hamilton mentioning the moon landings coverage on Thames. I think this clip has 'done the rounds'.

Also the set of experimental early 1968 Thames idents preceeded by an ABC 'standby' caption. Again, has done the rounds among collectors for years.

[hartley967]

Thames did do many TRs and they tended to be in colour as well.

But from the period 68-71 there is still plenty of shows that have survived from Thames and LWT such as

*Special Branch
The Gold robbers
*Public Eye
The Mind of Mr Jg Reeder
*Manhunt
Smith (Thames kids costume drama adventure series)
The Enchanted House (Thames kids drama series)
The Growing Summer (LWT's first kids adventure series)
Shadows of Fear (Thames spooky stuff)
Tales of Unease (LWT spooky stuff, the episode 'the old banger' is remembered by everyone who saw it)
Wicked Women ( Victorian melodrama series from Sat night theatre)

all (except *) awaiting DVD treatment

[johnstewart]

Anthony said:

To start the ball rolling on this one - The opening night of Thames appears to be completely missing. For a period running from thereabouts up until 1971, with the exceptions of 'Two Ds and a dog' and 'elephants eggs in a rhubarb tree' the thames childrens TV archive is largely depleted. From then 71 - 72 the archive is generally, to my knowledge very comprehensive.

I only know of two items in existance in exclusively in T-R form from this early Thames period. These are two Philip Elsmore links circa 1969, and 'do not adjust your stocking'. Of 'Ace of Wands' I believe 4 or so oddment episodes from series 3 exist as T-Rs. What occured to me was that if the majority of Thames first three years had been actuallt transferred to Film, then lost, i.e. not junked it might explain a strange gap for an otherwise quite notably comprehensive archivist of itws own product ?

This is another cut and paste by 'Anthony' of one of my old threads; and exact wording folks.

[hartley967]

Nevermind John, he is keeping the interest up and were obviously good threads of yours as they have brought a response .... again

[lpmoderator]

hartley967 said:

Thames did do many TRs and they tended to be in colour as well.

But from the period 68-71 there is still plenty of shows that have survived from Thames and LWT such as

*Special Branch
The Gold robbers
*Public Eye
The Mind of Mr Jg Reeder
*Manhunt
Smith (Thames kids costume drama adventure series)
The Enchanted House (Thames kids drama series)
The Growing Summer (LWT's first kids adventure series)
Shadows of Fear (Thames spooky stuff)
Tales of Unease (LWT spooky stuff, the episode 'the old banger' is remembered by everyone who saw it)
Wicked Women ( Victorian melodrama series from Sat night theatre)

all (except *) awaiting DVD treatment

Yes, many Thames series survive on VT but I think what was being asked was were many of their shows also transferred to t/r for sales purposes or whatever. We can only name a very small handful that exist this way (whether or not VT copies also survive of them) - can anyone think of more?

I expect the opening night of Thames was considered by them to be a bit of a fiasco, with the strike etc. I wonder if the actual opening programme material was recorded though (and later junked)? It's odd if no one saw fit to preserve it as we're now talking late '60s and many of the original ITV opening nights from the '50s were even recorded for posterity (e.g. Rediffusion, Angla etc).

[Christopher Perry]

Hi

I don't know of any Thames telerecordings that survive from that period.

Shows that survive are either on VT, or were made on 16mm colour film originally. The Tyrant King is a good example of that.

I know of plenty of ABC shows that survive from ABC's days, but I think shows were just routinely wiped for tape re-use. Frontier, which was made by ABC and shown by Thames was telerecorded by ABC, and survives as a 20-min promo film held by the producer. Thames did have an M2 tape of that footage in the 1990s, but it was never a Thames show.

Its worth remembering that Do Not Adjust Your Set was made by A-R originally and they are all telerecordings, but the sole Thames survivor is VT.

The Gold Robbers is LWT, but VT again.

c

[lpmoderator]

Do Not Adjust Your Stocking is on t/r though, Chris (made, I think, by Thames themselves rather than ABC) and a few t/rs of series 3 Ace Of Wands episodes seem to also be around on that format . What do you make of the low visibility of Thames (and LWT) t/rs, Chris? Surely they must have been made to some degree for sales purposes? This was the case with most of the other companies well into the '70s so I wouldn't have thought they would have been any different.

[Christopher Perry]

Stocking was made by A-R and hence kept as a t/r.

I was not aware of Ace of Wands series 3 being on t/r but colour t/r were often sold abroad so Thames International probably held them.

As for sales abroad, thats certainly feasible and should be the case, but isnt it odd that nothing has been found abroad and returned? No I think that early shows like The Sex Game and Premiere were not recorded for sales mainly because they were very poor the producers tell me and audiences didn't want to see them. :-)

I do hope some stuff was t/recorded and will turn up fingers crossed.

c

[Simon Winters]

Are you sure that Stocking was made by Rediffusion? It ends with a female cast member bending over to reveal the 'From Thames' ident on her bottom.

As this is a part of the actual programme, was Rediffusion sticking Thames idents on peoples' bottoms prior to the franchise handover?

[lpmoderator]

No, the Thames idents were added to the various programmes by Thames after franchise changeover. For example, the series 2 Callan eps have the logo added to them; the VT clocks for part one have the word "Thames" superimposed but parts 2 and three of the same episode usually still have the "ABC" logo ident left on (they obviously thought it was only important to change it at the start, where it's noticed most). With some series though, the ident would have been vision mixed in live on TX anyway, although not on the above. I recall with film series like The Avengers (Tara King episodes, which had their London area premiere very soon after Thames took over) that the "From Thames" ident (static caption, early basic version) was mixed from / to at the start / end.

[Stephen Doran]

The Avengers[Tara King Eps]October 1968-May 1969.

[lpmoderator]

chrisperry said:

Stocking was made by A-R and hence kept as a t/r.

I was not aware of Ace of Wands series 3 being on t/r but colour t/r were often sold abroad so Thames International probably held them.

As for sales abroad, thats certainly feasible and should be the case, but isnt it odd that nothing has been found abroad and returned? No I think that early shows like The Sex Game and Premiere were not recorded for sales mainly because they were very poor the producers tell me and audiences didn't want to see them. :-)

I do hope some stuff was t/recorded and will turn up fingers crossed.

c

Thanks for all the very interesting info, Chris. A different picture of Thames is starting to emerge. So are we saying that Thames have rarely - if ever (apart from exceptions such as those mentioned below) - transferred or sold their material on t/r? Very unusual if so as it was still a widely used format right into the '70s for most companies.

There are some curious gaps in Thames' early output though. Things like Sexton Blake, Queen Street Gang (presumably these were both made by Thames themselves? In the case of Blake, I mean the later episodes that went out under the Thames banner), Ace Of Wands etc. Was the second series of Do Not Adjust Your Set made by Rediffusion then, rather than Thames, by any chance? If so, it might explain it's absence from the archives in general. The old Kal guide also lists several Thames episodes of Life With Cooper as missing too, for instance.

I'm interested that Stocking was made by Rediffusion; would it not have been easier to just leave the master VT for Thames use though, rather than go to the hassle of transferring it to film?

The first I heard about the Ace Of Wands t/rs was some years back when (I think) Andrew Pixley said he was aware there were episodes around in this format (I think one ep or more of The Meddlers and one of the other series 3 stories). There is also mention of this either on this site previously or on Mausoleum or Roobarbs in the Ace threads.

[Stephen Doran]

I have the DNAYS DVDS and Rediffusion is at the start and end of all eps.