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Post by B Thomas on Oct 13, 2007 22:36:06 GMT
Sorry to burst anyone's bubble but "Seven Serpents..." was not screened in NZ. The only episodes we got (AFIK) were "The Meddlers" through to "Sisters Deadly" sometime around 1975...
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Post by johnstewart on Oct 15, 2007 16:16:50 GMT
Presumably this would be after Pam Lonsdale had moved onto RAINBOW c. 1972 - 73. We can gather from her comments that this was done in one batch rather than several occasions as she couldn't have been out all the time! This omits the fact though, that the masters of the 'SEVEN SERPENTS' story were retained fro a repeat in the London area in July 1973. The evidence indicates B+W terecordings were made of series 3 (as some exist) and I would assume therefore all the existing tapes at that time would have been transferred likewise for sales to other countries? There's no indication at all as to when the wipings were undertaken though. You're assuming it was '72-'73; it could have been (much or a little) later. The later it was, obviously there is more chance that copies were made somewhere along the way, to whatever format. There's a logic to my thinking though. The reason I say this is that Andrew Pixley seems to have ascertained that 'Seven Serpents' was the only series 1 and 2 show sold overseas along with series 3. As 'Serpents' was shown later; in July 73; and no other series 1 and 2 shown; it's the only one we have evidence survived until then. The fact that only this was sold with series 3 seems to imply that it was the only set of master tapes from the earlier series then available. As Thames would want to maximise sales presumably they would just clear everything they had for sales at that time. My theory is that the shows may have therefore been cleared for sales in 73 - 74 by which time only 'Serpents' from the repeat; and series 3 were still available. Pam Lonsdale only refers to one batch set of wipings. If you mean 'Seven serpents' might have itself been wiped later I understand that point. As some of the masters from series 3 were damaged it's possible that the 'Seven serpents' masters may have even been junked in the 80s; due to some kind of defects similar to the existing transferred tapes. But that these episodes were not copied like the other damaged ones (peacock 1 and 3; B people 4 and another I think); because the deterioration on them rendered them unsalvageable ? You see my point though - I just think series 1 and 3 were not sold along with 'Serpents' and series 3 as they had been wiped when the sales clearances were made.
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Post by lpmoderator on Oct 15, 2007 16:31:02 GMT
To set the matter straight on this though, has anyone read the Thames paperwork that indicates when the Ace tapes were wiped? Memories can play tricks too and i'm sure Pam Lonsdale was busy thinking more about making new programmes at the time than monitoring the archives to see if her old ones were being kept (i.e. she may be just guessing in her remarks and not know for certain). Personally, I think it's wide open as to whether or not there are copies of some kind floating around out there.
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Post by Paul Vanezis on Oct 15, 2007 17:41:57 GMT
This may be of little interest, but may shed some light on the very fast turnaround of tape at Thames.
When I was visiting Bob Wallis in Bognor, sorting through his hundreds of CV2000 tapes, I found 4 Quad tapes. I asked him where he got them from and why he had them.
Apparently he made his own half inch tape from them to feed his recorders. He purchased them from Thames TV at Teddington. Two of the tapes were blank. One was an Armchair Theatre starring Billie Whitelaw from 1971; it's an existing one, but Steve Bryant wanted it. The final tape was the rehearsal only of the Christmas day edition of 'Horne a Plenty', recorded on Christmas Eve 1968.
Although this programme was made and broadcast in black and white, the rehearsal was recorded in colour. The inserts on the tape were, though, black and white. It was screened at Missing Believed Wiped a few years ago.
The Armchair Theatre tape had been used and re-used many times, including as a studio recording for a Patrick Cargill series, sport etc...
Bob Wallis bought it in the very early seventies, pre- 1972 he said, so once regarded as not good enough, chucked!
Regards,
Paul
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Post by johnstewart on Oct 18, 2007 13:50:54 GMT
To set the matter straight on this though, has anyone read the Thames paperwork that indicates when the Ace tapes were wiped? Memories can play tricks too and i'm sure Pam Lonsdale was busy thinking more about making new programmes at the time than monitoring the archives to see if her old ones were being kept (i.e. she may be just guessing in her remarks and not know for certain). Personally, I think it's wide open as to whether or not there are copies of some kind floating around out there. Well I'm only going by the agenda set by Andrew Pixleys research. He says some of this over on Mausoleum. My logic is that Thames would sell whatever they had and the repeats 73 were all there was when the sales were cleared.
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Post by simoncoward on Oct 19, 2007 12:18:45 GMT
Wasn't the summer special just a screening of the Montreux entry though, and not new material? I don't think so, but could be wrong. It certainly had its own production number - and tape number. According to my info it was recorded on 26th March 1968 which was a week after programme 13 of the series proper. The Bonzos performed "Urban Spaceman" on it which I don't believe had been on any earlier shows but I don't have any further sketch-by-sketch information to absolutely confirm it. Is it known which edition was entered for Montreux?
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Post by Deleted on Oct 19, 2007 12:37:47 GMT
I'm not sure what the Montreux edition contained. Does anyone? A compilation would probably have it's own tape number though, wouldn't it (and if there was any extra framing material, maybe that would qualify it for a production number - just guessing here)? Maybe it was the mysterious 14th episode (that should have gone out Boxing Day '67)? I assumed it was a repeat of some kind, being transmitted as late in Rediffusion's life as it was.
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Post by simoncoward on Oct 19, 2007 18:49:56 GMT
I'm not sure what the Montreux edition contained. Does anyone? A compilation would probably have it's own tape number though, wouldn't it (and if there was any extra framing material, maybe that would qualify it for a production number - just guessing here)? Possibly, yes, though you'd wonder why they would have recorded a new Bonzos insert. It wasn't as though "Urban Spaceman" was a hit at that point, nor even by the time the programme was shown. I suppose it's possible it was a compilation of sketches but remakes rather than repeats. The BFI has all the scripts so it could be checked. Maybe it was the mysterious 14th episode (that should have gone out Boxing Day '67)? I assumed it was a repeat of some kind, being transmitted as late in Rediffusion's life as it was. Yes... that rings a bell, didn't they show the second episode first (by mistake) and then repeat it a week and a bit later or am I misremembering something? Do you know where this information came from? Episode two would certainly have been in the can, it was recorded on 16th December 1967.
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Post by lpmoderator on Oct 20, 2007 9:16:43 GMT
Possibly, yes, though you'd wonder why they would have recorded a new Bonzos insert. It wasn't as though "Urban Spaceman" was a hit at that point, nor even by the time the programme was shown. I suppose it's possible it was a compilation of sketches but remakes rather than repeats. The BFI has all the scripts so it could be checked. Yes... that rings a bell, didn't they show the second episode first (by mistake) and then repeat it a week and a bit later or am I misremembering something? Do you know where this information came from? Episode two would certainly have been in the can, it was recorded on 16th December 1967. Interesting that the BFI have all the scripts - didn't know that. Must go and have a look sometime! As you say though, it could have been a new show if Spaceman didn't feature in anything else (there's me willing the edition to be a repeat or compilation as I didn't want there to be yet another episode missing!!). Odd that they didn't even feature the song in series 2 though, after it had been a hit. The details about it are hazy but it's been reported in many places about the wrong episode going out on Boxing Day '67 (weren't the ad breaks thrown out of sync due to the part durations being different or something?) As far as is known, the "proper" Boxing Day edition was not shown on a subsequent week and seemingly vanished into a black hole without trace!
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Post by johnstewart on Oct 20, 2007 17:10:08 GMT
To set the matter straight on this though, has anyone read the Thames paperwork that indicates when the Ace tapes were wiped? Memories can play tricks too and i'm sure Pam Lonsdale was busy thinking more about making new programmes at the time than monitoring the archives to see if her old ones were being kept (i.e. she may be just guessing in her remarks and not know for certain). Personally, I think it's wide open as to whether or not there are copies of some kind floating around out there. Well I'm only going by the agenda set by Andrew Pixleys research. He says some of this over on Mausoleum. My logic is that Thames would sell whatever they had and the repeats 73 were all there was when the sales were cleared. Going back to this; the article published in TV ZONE on ACE OF WANDS 'nightmare gas' c. 1992 referred to the rights for series 1 and 2 not being sold abroad. At the time Andrews research indicated this. When I quoted it later Andrew came forward to say there were updates on this information. Earlier it had been believed most of the production material and slides for series 1 and 2 had been destroyed. Since then both scripts and a lot of colour slides seem to have been uncovered. Andrew also said that he had since found out that SEVEN SERPENTS had been sold abroad; though just this story and series 3; those very same episodes having comprised the London repeats in 1973. I would think other series at Thames would have been junked over various dates and years. An observation is perhaps they used the wiping of comedy and childrens as an economy to balance keeping more or less all the drama? P.S. Paul thanks for that fascinating additional input.
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Post by B Thomas on Oct 22, 2007 1:44:27 GMT
Andrew also said that he had since found out that SEVEN SERPENTS had been sold abroad; though just this story and series 3; those very same episodes having comprised the London repeats in 1973. Hmmm... this would seem to tally with what, of "Ace of Wands", was screened in NZ around 1975. However, I don't recall seeing Seven Serpents, Sulphur and Salt - I had the impression that we never had this one (even though, weirdly, I do seem to remember Tony Selby rather well)...
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