The Independent - Lost Doctor Who episodes are ‘out there'

[Ian Ritchie]

Jattree,

Regarding reasons why collectors are reluctant to hand over their episodes, Philip Morris has spoken on this subject. I point you towards Fantom Publishing’s online convention of 04/04/2020, where he was interviewed by Jason Clifford. The address for this is:
www.youtube.com/watch?v=xG1uryUKNhY

It’s good to watch the whole thing, but the bits of key relevance to your question are:

From 21’31’’ to 22’18’’:

“Well, with regards to Collectors, I have a lot of friends who are collectors …and I will tell you straight away now that at least six episodes - missing episodes – exist, to my knowledge, in the hands of private collectors. I won’t name them. I’ve said to them, ‘Why don’t you get it back to the BBC?’ And, you know, they’re not very certain of how they’d be treated. One thing they always say to me as well: ‘You’ve returned lots of missing episodes and look how you’ve been treated.’ My answer to that is always, ‘That’s a minority of people. That’s not the majority.’ I tell you now, I’ve met the majority of Doctor Who fans. They are the most articulate, wonderful, loving, creative people you could ever meet.”

And from 22’33’’ to 23’30’’:

“With private collectors you have to look into the history of missing Doctor Who episodes. Very early on – I won’t name names – there were certain people in fandom who would vilify people. People like Pamela Nash who worked for BBC Enterprises. Now Pamela Nash was vilified: ‘She destroyed all the Doctor Who episodes!’ Well, she didn’t. She did her job …which was, on something the rights had expired on – whatever programme – it was her job to protect the BBC’s copyright, which is quite correct. It was up to somebody else at the BBC to say, ‘Hang on a minute. Can we just have the negatives of anything you’ve struck for an overseas sale back to the archive? We don’t want prints – just the negatives.’ …which were eventually junked. That’s all that needed to happen. That wasn’t Pamela Nash’s fault. That was a breakdown of communication within management at the BBC.”

So, generally, he says that fandom has a tendency to look for people to blame, and, as a result, collectors have misgivings about there being a fan backlash against them. Lesson: individually and collectively, we need to stop doing this.

[Ian Ritchie]

Aug 4, 2023 14:06:51 GMT andyparting said:

With all due respect to our missing episode hunters, what was ever the point in the first place of announcing online or publically that these collectors have these episodes?

If you go back to the interviews where Paul Vanezis and Philip Morris first revealed that they knew of collectors who (likely) owned missing episodes… you’ll find that they delivered the news along with information as to how we, the fans, might change our behaviours to help bring about the return of episodes. Unfortunately, it was the news part that got lodged in people’s minds / got reported on… and the advice part hasn’t been taken on board by everyone.

I’ve already quoted Philip Morris in my last post on this thread.

You can hear what Paul Vanezis told Radio Free Skaro on their podcast of 03/06/2018 (#638, "London 1965"). The address for this is:
radiofreeskaro.com/2018/06/03/radio-free-skaro-638-london-1965/
The interview lasts for 20 minutes and starts 37 minutes in.

The bit I’m going to quote runs from 38’13’’ to 39’53’’:

“I mean, the thing about Doctor Who missing episodes is that there is absolutely no question that there are missing Doctor Who films out there with private film collectors. And I know some of these collectors… and at some point they may be interested in handing over their films… but they’re not the kind of people you should be pressuring to hand things over. There’s been a lot of criticism of film collectors by people who should really know better and, without them, these things would have been lost or destroyed years and years ago and the fact that they have survived, and survived in good condition, is because people have cared for them. And so… we might not like it – because we can’t see them – but it’s not really for us to criticise them for preserving this material. And, you know, one day we will get to see them. And I don’t want to make this sound like, you know, there are lots and lots of tins of missing Doctor Who out there that I know about. We’re talking about one or two episodes. They’re there and if something happens at some point in the future for them to be revealed then great.”

I’d say that’s a fairly clear message that we need to stop thinking of collectors as villains and recognise them as our potential heroes. And, of course, stop painting these people *who we do not even know* as villains in our internet postings.

[mattg]

Aug 6, 2023 17:13:58 GMT Ian Ritchie said:

So, generally, he says that fandom has a tendency to look for people to blame, and, as a result, collectors have misgivings about there being a fan backlash against them. Lesson: individually and collectively, we need to stop doing this.

Surely though if a collector was otherwise amenable to returning missing material yet wished to remain anonymous the BBC could grant anonymity easily enough?

Regardless, the Beeb’s longstanding policy of declining recompense in exchange for said material aside one suspects the real impediment here is a phenomenon I have previously defined as ‘Awkward Old Bugger Syndrome’. Naturally enough such an infuriating behavioural trait is exceedingly common in men of advanced years. I should know as my very own octogenarian father is a terminal case! 

[John Wall]

👆 As I’ve previously pointed out anyone with a DW ME can easily choose absolute anonymity or publicity.

[awpeacock]

Aug 6, 2023 18:51:53 GMT John Wall said:

👆 As I’ve previously pointed out anyone with a DW ME can easily choose absolute anonymity or publicity.

Has this ever been successfully achieved?  We seem to know the identity of virtually everybody who has returned any MEs (and usually the story of how they came to be in possession)?  If I was looking at this as a collector, I'd be a bit weary as to whether or not anonymity could be guaranteed.

[Deleted]

Aug 6, 2023 20:14:47 GMT awpeacock said:

Aug 6, 2023 18:51:53 GMT John Wall said:

👆 As I’ve previously pointed out anyone with a DW ME can easily choose absolute anonymity or publicity.

Has this ever been successfully achieved?  We seem to know the identity of virtually everybody who has returned any MEs (and usually the story of how they came to be in possession)?  If I was looking at this as a collector, I'd be a bit weary as to whether or not anonymity could be guaranteed.

Well, we don't know the identity of the collector who had Episode 6 of the Reign of Terror, so that could be a precedent.

[John Wall]

Aug 6, 2023 20:14:47 GMT awpeacock said:

Aug 6, 2023 18:51:53 GMT John Wall said:

👆 As I’ve previously pointed out anyone with a DW ME can easily choose absolute anonymity or publicity.

Has this ever been successfully achieved?  We seem to know the identity of virtually everybody who has returned any MEs (and usually the story of how they came to be in possession)?  If I was looking at this as a collector, I'd be a bit weary as to whether or not anonymity could be guaranteed.

Because they haven’t been worried. The last two came back from Terry Burnett, iirc, and he seems to have been happy to be named. I’m sure Ralph Montague would have kept his name out of the news if he’d asked. AFAIK RM was the point of contact. It wasn’t as if he’d been “hoarding” them, he just didn’t know they were missing.

[Richard Develyn]

Well, if I had a missing episode (I wish!), I would simply approach Paul V and there would be nothing to worry about.

Two more points I would like to make on this:

1) Private film collectors have only done us a favour by saving ME's from destruction if, and only if, they return them to the BBC so that we can all enjoy them. I still can't really understand why they don't.

2) We must presumably separate whoever has WoF3 from the considerations we are giving private film collectors. WoF3 was not, after all, rescued from a skip. I'm going to assume, actually, that whoever has it is not a private film collector, or that private film collectors would not wish to be associated with this person or their activities, as it would give them a bad name.

Richard

[Paul Vanezis]

Aug 7, 2023 8:41:07 GMT Richard Develyn said:

Well, if I had a missing episode (I wish!), I would simply approach Paul V and there would be nothing to worry about.

Two more points I would like to make on this:

1) Private film collectors have only done us a favour by saving ME's from destruction if, and only if, they return them to the BBC so that we can all enjoy them. I still can't really understand why they don't.

2) We must presumably separate whoever has WoF3 from the considerations we are giving private film collectors. WoF3 was not, after all, rescued from a skip. I'm going to assume, actually, that whoever has it is not a private film collector, or that private film collectors would not wish to be associated with this person or their activities, as it would give them a bad name.

Richard

Hello all, and thank you Richard for entrusting me with your future missing episode recoveries ! :-)

The statement made by Philip Morris, quoted earlier in this thread is very important. Collectors are generally wary of 'authority' and all recall how Bob Monkhouse was treated, also other collectors at the hands of FACT. The BBC on the other hand has made a creditable effort to get the message out that they would just like to copy a film and the collector can keep their original if they want to. When I discuss this issue with collectors, I always mention the important role that Terry Burnett played in the return of missing episodes. Firstly, knowing the history, he still loaned his Doctor Who films to the BBC. He did eventually sell them near to his death. Other films in his collection, many missing TV shows will be going back to archives. I stress the word archives; the BBC has an archive, but some ITV companies and third party rights holders do not and that puts returned material at risk. Material such as that must be returned to public bodies such as the NFTVA, MACE etc.

In answer to those wanting to know why collectors don't return things... I have explained this many times before. Mostly, collectors are very generous with other collectors and will help them with their collections if they can. Few general film collectors are interested in television films (i.e. film recordings of old TV shows). But a collection is a collection and who in their right mind would want to loan material out from a collection? Just ask the current 'possessors' of the Elgin marbles... I mean, they may not get them back.

So it's about trust in many cases.

Trust; it's an important word. And word gets about amongst film collectors if trust is breached. Let's talk hypothetically. What if I ran a voluntary organisation dedicated to tracking down lost material? I then get cosy with a national archive which imbues credibility in my 'work'. This credibility is enough to persuade some collectors to part with their films or other parts of their collections so that they can be copied for the rights holder. Unfortunately, whilst I take possession of content, I don't always return films or other content in good time. Months, even years may pass before the collector gets his film or content back. This is because despite promising to be diligent, I have no facilities of my own to transfer anything, I have to rely on favours. I also have no funding, so I have to blag cash to pay for all of this or, worse, promise copies of this rare or unique material in return for funding to pay for the transfers. Over time, word gets about amongst collectors about me and my organisation. Collectors question amongst themselves... "Who can we really trust?" They may conclude that they can only trust each other.

In the meantime, some who have loaned me material may never get it back because, due to the unique way my organisation is 'organised' I have forgotten who I gave material to to get transferred, or perhaps I have decided that possession is nine tenths of the law and besides, what can this person whose tapes I promised to transfer do if I don't give them back?

Or perhaps I can't return material because I have never put in place a system of cataloguing or, worse, haven't paid the bill for the storage facility I have hired and I've been denied access until I can.

Of course, this is just an extreme hypothetical example of what could happen that might alienate film collectors and others from returning material to anyone.

Trust. Hard earned. Easily lost.

I have learned when dealing with collectors or any contributor to programmes I am working on, to never make promises you can't keep, or borrow anything if there is the slightest chance that it may get lost in the process. The television and print industries are actually really awful at keeping safe material on loan from third parties and the items most at risk are things like photographs and home movies, items that need to get sent to an outside facility for transfer, aren't labelled in a TV friendly way and are sometimes, and usually, unique. If lost, gone forever. And that loss could be devastating for a family that has loaned precious and unique material.

Film collectors are contributors; they talk to each other and if there is a bad penny borrowing material, word gets about. Then others get tarred with the same brush. Soon, few if any people can be trusted.

Not wishing to be rude, but I don't think many of you have any clue at all the effort it takes to garner trust with someone who has lost all trust and importantly has other and more pressing priorities than loaning out their films.

Paul

[Richard Develyn]

Hi Paul,

Thank you for your extensive answer. I'm going to slightly quote you back to front here:

Aug 7, 2023 9:51:06 GMT Paul Vanezis said:

Not wishing to be rude, but I don't think many of you have any clue at all the effort it takes to garner trust with someone who has lost all trust and importantly has other and more pressing priorities than loaning out their films.

I can quite imagine.

Aug 7, 2023 9:51:06 GMT Paul Vanezis said:

Hello all, and thank you Richard for entrusting me with your future missing episode recoveries ! :-)

Exactly!

You *can* be trusted, and they all know you :-)

Richard

[John Wall]

👆 If I had a ME I’d go straight to Paul 👍

[John Green]

I contributed a small sum years ago towards the transfmer of a few episodes of archive TV, and was meant to get a DVD copy as a Thank You. Did I ever get it? Nah!

What we need is Lee Marvin in Point Blank!

Which is not to say that most people aren't trustworthy; they are. The trouble is that ME owners are safest if it's out there that they are the ones who own the physical assets. Not possible when they want anonymity.

Third-party 'honest-broker' dealings might be a way through this. Paul 'Escrow' Vanezis, would be my choice.

[michaelnorris]

I definitely agree with the way the thread has moved into. Trust is extremely important and when it's about something one of a kind that very few people would know or care the importance or significance of, who can you trust? Even the BBC has fumbled potential episode recoveries, so I can understand the wariness from some collectors. Hopefully we as a community can continue to help shift the attitudes people have to contribute to an environment where people can feel safe to loan out these episodes for copies to be made.

[jameswale85]

I would just like to thank everybody for their contributions to this thread, it has been a massive eye-opener. I have always held the view that people keeping episodes privately was greedy and mean to others.

I would just like to say publically that I have totally changed my opinion and am grateful to know that others have actually been protecting material for the greater good.

I am sorry for having that wrong opinion and grateful people posting who have allowed me to rationalise others' POV regarding trust. I have a large collection of Who which is not rare and copies are widely availible yet I would completely understand the breach of trust and feelings of betrayal.

I still remember loaning a friend at school my VHS of the Daemons. He moved house & school and I never saw him or my video ever again. I'm still angry 25 years later as it was a birthday present!

This is a great forum and I hope that it will continue to educate and inform others as it has with myself this evening. Thank you everyone for the enlightenment.

[Richard Develyn]

Aug 7, 2023 21:21:06 GMT jameswale85 said:

I still remember loaning a friend at school my VHS of the Daemons. He moved house & school and I never saw him or my video ever again. I'm still angry 25 years later as it was a birthday present!

It happened to me too with some of the early cassette tapes I had of missing episode audios. Not only did the chap keep them, I later found out that he sold them!

Richard