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Post by Jaspal Cheema on Sept 11, 2022 19:58:18 GMT
I disagree. Likenesses are important for several reasons: - These animations are a replacement for the original visuals. Many consumers much prefer them to be as faithful as possible to those original visuals. This is evident from the lists of most highly regarded animations, which are consistently topped by the likes of The Invasion and The Moonbase (despite the former's error with Zoe's clothing), and why black & white versions are included in the releases rather than just colour versions.
- Many fans prefer to watch any surviving episodes rather than animations of them. That's understandable. Why pass on the opportunity to watch the original and appreciate the actual production and performances? If, as is apparently the case with The Abominable Snowmen animation, characters are not very recognisable then that is at best a distraction and at worst confusing and frustrating.
- Changing a character's likeness so that they no longer resemble the actor who played the role and, importantly, whose voice is still being used in the animation may be considered highly disrespectful to that actor.
- Changing a character's likeness so that it matches a generic stereotype may be considered offensive.
- Imposing current political sensitivities onto past productions is considered both unnecessary and inappropriate by many.
I suppose the best way of looking at it is that without accurate likeness's of the actors,the production becomes a cartoon,not an animation-that is the forward motion of the visuals after the next best artefacts which are the telesnaps and those are static.Even without the surviving episode 2 which jars against the animated renditions,the telesnaps also have the true facial features of the actors so the production team should have been able to create assets which were accurate from them.
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Post by mattg on Sept 20, 2022 13:20:43 GMT
I disagree. Likenesses are important for several reasons: - These animations are a replacement for the original visuals. Many consumers much prefer them to be as faithful as possible to those original visuals. This is evident from the lists of most highly regarded animations, which are consistently topped by the likes of The Invasion and The Moonbase (despite the former's error with Zoe's clothing), and why black & white versions are included in the releases rather than just colour versions.
- Many fans prefer to watch any surviving episodes rather than animations of them. That's understandable. Why pass on the opportunity to watch the original and appreciate the actual production and performances? If, as is apparently the case with The Abominable Snowmen animation, characters are not very recognisable then that is at best a distraction and at worst confusing and frustrating.
- Changing a character's likeness so that they no longer resemble the actor who played the role and, importantly, whose voice is still being used in the animation may be considered highly disrespectful to that actor.
- Changing a character's likeness so that it matches a generic stereotype may be considered offensive.
- Imposing current political sensitivities onto past productions is considered both unnecessary and inappropriate by many.
I suppose the best way of looking at it is that without accurate likeness's of the actors,the production becomes a cartoon,not an animation-that is the forward motion of the visuals after the next best artefacts which are the telesnaps and those are static.Even without the surviving episode 2 which jars against the animated renditions,the telesnaps also have the true facial features of the actors so the production team should have been able to create assets which were accurate from them. On a tangentially related note another jarring issue with ‘modernised’ Who animations is the frequent disparity between the surviving audio and characters depicted on screen. This was particularly noticeable with ‘Fury From The Deep’ - a story that, like most of its contemporaries of course, was originally confined to a series of claustrophobic sets erected in a small studio. The subsequent animation though saw fit to upgrade the diminutive control room set to the size of a small football pitch (!) rendering the compressed audio distractingly incongruous to the expansive visuals. That said, ‘The Macra Terror’ animation did much the same and I didn’t really have a problem with it. Perhaps I’ve just got it in for Fury’…
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Post by George D on Dec 21, 2022 18:31:00 GMT
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Post by Ralph Rose on Dec 22, 2022 18:29:16 GMT
Well that explains the clashes between the animation, and the original episode two. Not my cup of tea, but, I can understand that viewpoint. With the animations not being considered replacements, seems ok to do as well. I do hope that as time and technology passes, that these stories can be recreated as accurately, realistically and completely as possible, in keeping with the original production. Knowing that some of these episodes are missing for good, and a recreation is the best we will ever get to see.
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Post by alanreilly1978 on Dec 22, 2022 22:43:13 GMT
Gary russell you should be ashamed of yourself,dr who was made in the sixties,directors who in good faith with budget,time money/restraints and to make the programme in a short space of time and to have a pop at gerald blake is disgraceful and an insult to his family how do you even know if the asian actors around would have wanted to play a part in dr who as it was seen as a children's show at the time.times change times change get with it aka Ian Chesterson
Might not get anyway with speaking my view?
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Post by alanreilly1978 on Dec 22, 2022 22:55:46 GMT
Doctor who was there too make especially kids and adults happy,25 minutes of pure escapism and fantasy and enjoyment to harm know one,least of the people who did nobody any harm,sticks and stones,innocent times.don't make a big deal of it cause it is was it is and that's it.warts and all.
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Post by George D on Dec 23, 2022 2:39:44 GMT
While we're rehashing, people can add asian elements and still keep common characteristics of the characters (age, build, facial hair, etc. )
I believe the real reason is explained by Padmasambhava who has nothing to do with nationality Of either laziness or personal preference. But trying to justify it as a higher reason by condemning others i think bounces right back on him.
I wish those on the DVD team cared more about what is bought. If i bought a new car i would make sure the car was up to standards before paying for it.
While looking at a list of gary russell animations its noticed how many had personal adjustments and or quality concerns. If we get another round of animations perhaps he would not be my choice.
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Post by John Wall on Dec 23, 2022 9:50:18 GMT
There’s been a certain amount of manufactured aggro about this sort of thing recently. Should you only have people with particular characteristics playing characters with those characteristics?
I think it’s important to step back and remember that acting is fundamentally make believe, back in Shakespeare’s time female characters were played by males as women weren’t allowed on the stage!
Take this to its illogical conclusion and the Doctor can only be played by a centuries old Gallifreyan - I’m not sure how many agencies have many of those on their books!
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Post by PAUL WOOD on Dec 23, 2022 10:21:47 GMT
While we're rehashing, people can add asian elements and still keep common characteristics of the characters (age, build, facial hair, etc. ) I believe the real reason is explained by Padmasambhava who has nothing to do with nationality Of either laziness or personal preference. But trying to justify it as a higher reason by condemning others i think bounces right back on him. I wish those on the DVD team cared more about what is bought. If i bought a new car i would make sure the car was up to standards before paying for it. While looking at a list of gary russell animations its noticed how many had personal adjustments and or quality concerns. If we get another round of animations perhaps he would not be my choice. My own personal take on the animations is that they should attempt recreate as accurately as possible the look & feel of the original episodes, utilizing whatever elements are to hand - whether this be telesnaps, 8mm footge, on set publicity shots or surviving episodes from the rest of the story. They should not be used as a revisionist vehicle to correct any perceived 'mistakes', production limitations or alleged mis-casting. Just my take on it. Others may disagree and I respect that.
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Post by John Wall on Dec 23, 2022 12:20:44 GMT
Some DVDs have options to have updated special effects, seems to work well 👍
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Post by John Green on Dec 23, 2022 17:18:58 GMT
Some DVDs have options to have updated special effects, seems to work well 👍 So tempted to say "outdated special effects"! I remember years ago, an issue of the Marvel Avengers comic had a Black character wrongly coloured as Caucash.... White. I'd quite like to see that corrected. When the British Dr. No (not Doctor Who) comic was republished in the US by DC Comics, the Three Blind Mice musicians were coloured White. See also: tombrevoort.com/2021/11/06/teen-titans-20-titans-dont-fit-the-battle-of-jericho/ "he told his editor that the book as it was then was unpublishable, not up to snuff and an embarrassment that DC would not print. Apparently, everybody involved in this initial conversation largely danced around the central issue; the fear that showcasing a black super hero would cost DC distribution in southern States." As The Velvet Underground might have said, "Those were different times". i
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Post by John Wall on Dec 23, 2022 22:09:53 GMT
If, in this time of Christmas spirit 🥃🥂, we take things to their wokish conclusions then anything and everything non-authentic in film or TV should be a big no-no. All studio work should, of course, be verboten. All sci fi space opera should be made in outer space - presumably making St. Elon and Space X loadsamoney. It would become unacceptable for one town, city or country to double for another and blank cartridges and strawberry jam will have to be replaced by live rounds and real blood.
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Post by George D on Dec 24, 2022 0:01:08 GMT
Everyone has a different take on what's correct
For example, when visiting plymouth mass, they had biological native Americans representing their culture. When visiting jamestown there were people of various races representing the Indians because they couldn't discriminate.
The dr and master are male British characters however they saw nothing wrong with changing the characters gender and nationality . they had no problem not representing accurately when it would fairly easy to do so.
I don't know how much the producers were aware of the tibetian culture or how many tibetian actors were available but I'm not seeing anything viewed as stereotypical or discriminatory . I sense they used the best actors they had available for the part without any quotas. Stories such as marco polo have shown a history of a diversified cast
And the risk of copying a culture too much can risk adding stereotypical characteristics. It was a story set in a culture with no subliminal message than good conquering evil.
I believe cultures should be respected respectfully but as mlk said we should just people by their heart than the color of their skin.
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Post by Ralph Rose on Dec 24, 2022 1:10:29 GMT
I don't know how much the producers were aware of the tibetian culture or how many tibetian actors were available but I'm not seeing anything viewed as stereotypical or discriminatory . I sense they used the best actors they had available for the part without any quotas. Stories such as marco polo have shown a history of a diversified cast And the risk of copying a culture too much can risk adding stereotypical characteristics. It was a story set in a culture with no subliminal message than good conquering evil. I believe cultures should be respected respectfully but as mlk said we should just people by their heart than the color of their skin. I agree. The portrayal of the actors and characters in Abominable Snowmen, was very respectful, with actors just playing a part. I see no discrimination in it either. No mistakes to be changed needed. No different than any actor of any race playing say a cowboy, or a mountain man. Which both such roles are very diversified in history. I look forward to the day, (and I think your quote of Martin Luther King Jr. is very apt, and I agree with it) that race and color will not matter to anyone, for any reason. and to paraphrase: Judge people by their heart, not their genetics.
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Post by John Wall on Dec 24, 2022 20:42:36 GMT
There are some figures available that can help put things into context.
The first census, iirc, to collect ethnicity information was 1991 when the UK was 95% “white British”. The remainder included “other white” such as Europeans, Blacks (Afro Caribbean and Africans) and Asians which covered everything from the Indian subcontinent (south Asian) to China/Japan (east Asian).
Hop into a convenient blue Police Box and press the rewind button to go back 25 years to 1966 and that 95% will be higher - although I don’t know how much.
Mass immigration started after WW2 - the, so called, Windrush generation - but Britain has always been a bit of a melting pot, particularly as a maritime trading nation. There were Africans on Hadrian’s Wall - hardly surprising as the Romans moved legions around their empire. Henry VIII had a black trumpeter and there were Africans in Nelson’s navy.
Notwithstanding all that I suspect that had the question been asked in 1951 the “white British” figure would have been comfortably over 99%
So, in 1966 I’m not sure how many actors suitable to give decent portrayals of Tibetans were available in London - but I doubt there was a massive choice.
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