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Post by Patrick Coles on Aug 5, 2013 19:33:10 GMT
'I like the harmonica but not what came before....It's too jumpy to be a hit, that beat is too fast, it just gets you down...' & 'the voice is heard too much...'
- so says this 'John Lennon bloke' re the number '5-4-3-2-1' which then reached number six & became the theme tune to the iconic sixties Pop TV show; 'Ready Steady Go !' (on which The Beatles appeared a few times as I recall....)
Much as I Loved JL he could be a lousy record reviewer on occasion !(LOL)
I recall he later said of The Hollies 1971 single 'Hey Willy'; - 'It'll shoot UP the charts like a rocket...' sadly that proved to be the 'kiss of death' as it 'failed to launch' getting stuck on the pad at no.22 (despite being a decent 'rockin' number) one of their rare less successful singles of their heyday period.
John also pushed for his 'Cold Turkey' to be a Beatles single record in 1969 much to the stern opposition of Paul, George, & Ringo...(thus the Plastic Ono Band did it instead)
still it's interesting to read John's always frank and honest opinions...and to be fair John said he was only a 'lukewarm' fan of The Beatles too...!
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Post by Patrick Coles on Aug 2, 2013 13:46:37 GMT
yeah pity no footage of 'I'll Never Get Over You' seems to survive...
probably it was; John Morehead (guitar), Nick Simper (bass guitar), Ray Soaper (organ) & (I think) Roger Truth (Drums) who were Johnny's final crew of Pirates - (I'm a bit less sure of the final days of them as sadly they rather 'slipped from public view' back at the time just prior to Johnny's death, as by 1966 their brand of Rock & Roll / R & B was fast being eclipsed in the music media by the current fads for groups like The Monkees, etc and the soul music craze
- Johhny Kidd cut great versions of soul flavoured songs; 'The Birds & The Bees' and 'It's Got To Be You' with organ, brass, and female backup singers being featured....but many of his fans still preferred his basic raw guitar/bass/drums backing line up (template for The Who, Cream, Jimi Hendrix Experience, etc) doing the Rock & Roll and grittier R & B styled material.
Note during Mersybeat The Searchers also covered Gordon Mills song 'Hungry For Love' on album, and The Swinging Blue Jeans covered his own 'Shakin' All Over' thus Johnny's influence on Mersybeat was considerable even if he was largely overlooked by many at that time (even The Who covered 'Shakin' later on their 'Live At Leeds' album)
I have an acoustic guitar solo album by John Weider & a solo album by The late Mick Green too.
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Post by Patrick Coles on Jul 31, 2013 18:26:11 GMT
Great clip Alan !
on the point Phillip made re their songwriting it's worth remembering they wrote chart hit '5-4-3-2-1' besides 'Hubble Bubble (Toil and Trouble)', and their 1964 EP 'The One in The Middle' which DID chart in the UK featured the Paul Jones composed title track - that EP also featured Dylan's 'With God on Our Side' (Dylan said The Manfreds did the best covers of his songs).
I think having John Burgess as their producer at EMI duly picking the potential hits ('Do Wah Diddy Diddy', 'Sha La La' etc) was a strong plus earlier on, where as later at Phillips/ Phonogram (Fontana) they were produced by both initially Shel Talmy and later Gerry Bron but it seems no one believed that strongly in their 'in house' songwriting abilities to come up with hit singles, despite them penning so much decent album material and their consistantly strong 'B' sides, or the band's scope and potential (including it appears Manfred himself !) and the selection of the somewhat run of the mill 'Ragamuffin Man' (a unremarkable song made only worthwhile for the group's professional performance of it I feel) suggests things were 'petering out' for them as the sixties drew to a close (likewise for a few other 'name' bands around that time who released 'workmanlike' hit singles not of their strongest offering), certainly we know Manfred & Mike Hugg were fast losing interest in being seen as 'Pop stars'
one other bit of kudos for the Manfred Mann group besides using the mellotron, was their use of a flute on a pop record
In a Merseybeat programme I recall Bill Harry making a point of how innovative The Beatles were in being the FIRST pop group to feature a flute on a pop record on John's; 'You've Got To Hide Your Love Away' in 'Help !'(1965), played by a session musician....
....however Manfred Mann had beat them to it by group member Mike Vickers playing a brief bit of flute on 'Without You' the 'B' side of '5-4-3-2-1' & a 'Five Faces of Manfred Mann...' album track earlier in 1964.
Besides The Searchers (whose 'story' seems to be hindered by the ongoing acrimony between John McNally & Mike Pender) & The Dave Clark Five (whose history is a closely guarded secret it seems) & I stress I'm only interested in the music, the releases & the basic facts of a band's story minus any 'sleaze' etc so a 'sanitised' factual account would suit me...Manfred Mann seem to be an almost 'forgotten' group, and a telling of their history looking at the record releases etc is long overdue, possibly Manfred's apparent own lack of interest is a key factor here ?
We can only hope for any possible future 'British Invasion' type DVD set (as The Hollies, Small Faces, Herman, Gerry, Dusty etc have had) gathering together what there is worldwide in the archives such as that USA clip of 'Sha La La' Alan posted a link to.
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Post by Patrick Coles on Jul 31, 2013 13:11:29 GMT
I agree William, chronological order would make most sense re their unfolding history It's funny but Manfred Mann - From Paul Jones to Mike d'Abo & later Chapter Three to Earthband & then in his Earthband from Mick Rogers to Chris Thompson etc, seemed to er 'regenerate' their group line ups every so often along with the actors playing 'Doctor Who' changing ! - not quite each at the same time, but overall - mid sixties, late sixties, mid seventies etc.... no doubt purely just a co-incidence, but I remember noticing that at the time...
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Post by Patrick Coles on Jul 31, 2013 12:38:43 GMT
I was a member of both the Johnny Kidd Appreciation Society (run by Alan Wheeler) & the (then) reformed Pirates fan club.
I regret I've no info re TV clips tho' I do remember Johnny singing 'I'll Never Get Over You' on a TV show back in 1963 (I can't remember which sorry !) hopefully that performance still survives
re the line ups: Future Tornados Clem Cattini (Drums), Brian Gregg (bass) & Alan Caddy (lead guitar) were the original Pirates - tho' session man Joe Moretti played lead on 'Shakin' All Over'
later the legendary Late Great Mick Green came in on guitar with Johnny Spence (Bass/vocals) & Frank Farley (Drums) - these are pictured above (think that's Green it's certainly Spence & Farley) - these were THE Pirates line up....who were featured on 'I Can Tell', 'A Shot of Rhythm & Blues', the hits 'I'll Never Get Over You' & Hungry For Love', plus; 'Jealous Girl', 'Dr.Feelgood' & 'Always And Ever' etc...probably the strongest version of the combo, yet the Mersybeat 'beat boom' they helped inspire did them no favours....
Mick Green later left to join The Dakotas (replacing bassist Ray Jones) - catch Billy J.Kramer's cuts of; 'I'll Be Doggone', 'Don't Do it No More', and 'We're Doing Fine' to see how Green on co-lead guitar duly 'powered up' the Manchester band (Robin Macdonald switched to bass with Green co-lead alongside guitarist Mike Maxfield in the revised Dakotas 1964-66 line up) - while Mick also played the lovely mandolin part on Billy J.Kramer's 'Trains & Boats & Planes' (1965) latter hit too...
John Weider (not Morehead) then came in on guitar - later Weider was in Eric Burdon's New Animals & in the seventies played bass guitar in Family after Rik Grech left for Blind Faith, appearing on several later Family albums notably; 'Old Songs New Songs' - Weider was a great guitarist too & he featured on 'Shakin' All Over 65' - while vintage mid sixties footage of Weider playing guitar in The New Animals in 1967 on German TV has been shown recently on Sky Arts 1 channel in the 'Beat Beat Beat' series, performing 'Roadrunner', 'C.C. Rider' etc, and a 'Beat Club' 1968 performance of 'Shake, Rattle & Roll' also survives (shown by VH-1 channel a few years ago) , it's noticeable how Wilko Johnson later copied John Weider's stance onstage...even his 'head nodding' !
Organist Ray Soaper was a part of the later Pirates too
After Weider left to become a 'New Animal' in 1966 , Spence & Farley departed too...
...tho' of course later were reunited with Mick Green in the mid seventies for; 'Out of Their Skulls', 'Skull Wars'. 'Happy Birthday Rock & Roll' albums, a notable re-cut of 'Shakin' All Over '77' and some memorable live concerts on Radio one plus a jam with Dr.Feelgood - Lee Brilleaux & Wilko Johnson taking their band name from Johnny Kidd & The Pirates 1964 cover & also covering 'I Can Tell' on their first album (Mick Green & Wilko co-wrote; 'Goin' Back Home' cut by both Pirates & Feelgoods, while Green & Alan Lancaster co-wrote; 'You Don't Own Me' recorded by both Status Quo & The Pirates)
Nick Simper came in on bass guitar with a fresh crew of Pirates in 1966, Nick was in the car with Johnny when it crashed in October 1966, Nick was injured when Johnny was sadly killed
Nick Simper later was later bassist in the 'mark one' Deep Purple (with vocalist Rod Evans & Blackmore, Paice & Lord) & appeared on their Parlophone singles & 'Shades of Deep Purple' debut album.
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Post by Patrick Coles on Jul 31, 2013 11:47:35 GMT
Hi Phillip (& thanks Rob, I've amended my username)
Yes Manfred & I think Graham Bond were using the melloton even before The Moodies, Beatles, & Stones
Manfred of course famously on 'Semi Detatched' (which I've read was originally titled' 'Mr. JONES' but they amened it to 'James' so as not to appear any perceived dig at Paul Jones with whom they were still friends)
no 'big fall outs' ever seemed to apply re The Manfreds either - Mike Vickers left, came back, then departed again but they never fell out as such, you get the impression they were 'too professional' for egos etc...
Manfred features the mellotron on 'As Is' most effectively too ('A Now And Then Thing', 'Box Office Draw' etc) - I Love; 'You're My Girl' a 'one tone wonder' ! There were notable differences in the mono & stereo mixes on several tracks too, not vastly different versions just in the mixing, thus you need both versions (same re the earlier two 'chapter one' line up albums too), only the stereo versions of the 1966-69 era albums later were issued on CD so any of the mono LPs are worth grabbing if you see them...
...and all Manfred Mann albums are hard to find these days, seldom can such a prolific hit making band have been so seemingly forgotten by the wider public, there are a couple of decent selling hits compilations, but you don't see the singles let alone EPs & LPs very often now...
A 'Bonzos/Monty Python' sense of humour was present in the more surreal 'chapter two' band, with; the manic laugh intro to 'Feeling So Good', 'There is A Man', 'Edwin Garvey', and the Bonzo-ish 'Happy Families'(with three radically different versions on one album !)
on the other hand original 'B' side songs such as; 'I Wanna Be Rich', 'Too Many People', 'Sleepy Hollow', 'Feeling So Good' etc were quality songs more deserving of use on albums surely ?
'Funniest Gig' has similar sounds to Pink Floyd's 'Bike' plus eerie overdubs of snatches of; 'So Long Dad' & 'Ha Ha Said The Clown'
The chapter two Manfreds did seem to go in so many differing directions many of which other famed groups like Pink Floyd, The Bonzo Dog Doo Dah Band & indeed Beatles, Stones, Small Faces, Moody Blues, Zombies, & Hollies (whom Mike Vickers worked with 1966-68) each delved into in perhaps a more focused style and enjoyed more critical acclaim for....?
Manfred Mann 'chapter two' more than most seemed a bit 'schizoid' in musical style, going from a weirdly surreal track...to a classic pop hit...to an accomplished jazzy instrumental...to a wistful love song...with the odd rockin' track thrown in for good measure too ('Dealer,Dealer', 'Big Betty' etc) - thus I suspect many critics preferred the more reliably consistant 'chapter one' pop/R & B Manfreds fronted by Paul Jones (tho' 'Machines' in 1966 really hints at what was coming up....)
speaking of 'Machines', only Paul, Tom, Mike & Manfred were pictured on the EP cover - I assume Jack Bruce played bass guitar on it - but he's not pictured...tho' he IS included in the band line up along with Henry Lowther & Lyn Dobson pictured on 'Instrumental Aslylum' EP just after....anyone know why ?
I feel both Manfred Mann 'chapter two' & 'chapter three' have been rather eclipsed by 'chapter one' & later both Earthband & The Blues Band (all of whom were more readily 'acceptable' by the wider public I think)
'As Is', 'Mighty Garvey!' and 'Up The Junction' each with period bonus tracks (some unissued tracks like an early Dylan cover of 'Please Mrs Henry' later re-cut on the first Earthband album) plus a 'Hits 1966-1969' set were finally all out remastered on CD a while ago (not sure if you can still get them tho') - significantly some decent music loving overseas chap was 'thanked' for making it all possible, so we must assume he alone had put up the money !
Tom McGuinness has spoken of EMI 'losing interest' once Paul quit & just signed him up as a soloist (not always to Paul's delight his 'collection' volumes CD linear notes reveal) with 'not much mileage' given by EMI to the rest of the group.
The instrumental 'Sweet Pea' (which actually made no.36 in 1967) was used in a TV car commercial in the UK recently.
rarer 'chapter two' era singles are that, the 'flops' 'So Long Dad' c/w 'Funniest Gig' (1967), Theme from 'Up The Junction' (edit) c/w 'Sleepy Hollow' (1968)
and from earlier; 'Why Should We Not ?' c/w 'Brother Jack' and 'Cock A Hoop' c/w 'Now You're Needing Me' (both 1963) and their 'unofficial' 1966 single 'You Gave Me Somebody To Love' c/w 'Posion Ivy' both featuring Paul Jones - the'A' side of which EMI (HMV label) 'finished off' with session players...it charted & considerably upset them (& Paul Jones too)
hence Tom's typically acidic; 'Manfreds disown new single' remark in his linear notes on 'As Is' album.
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Post by Patrick Coles on Jul 31, 2013 10:17:33 GMT
Hello folks !
My name is Patrick Coles, I tried registering under my full name as per your rules but proboards will only accept my 'username' from other proboards forums (how do I change it ?)
anyway, re the Manfreds
'Five Faces' made no.3 in the UK albums chart in 1964 so they did have some album success besides hits compilations.
I saw the DVD with the 'Ascent of Mann' CD (I think it was) where Manfred rather surprisingly seemed to think his 'Chaper Two' (d'Abo version) outfit were NOT capable of making it as a seventies band - yet this is very 'underrating' of his own band when you consider that Mike d'Abo was a strong songwriter ('Build Me Up Buttercup' topped the UK charts for the Foundations & both Chris Farlowe & later Rod Stewart did successful covers of his famous song 'Handbags & Gladrags'),
Mike Hugg was another strong composer - The Yardbirds covered his 'You're a Better Man than I' as 'B' side to 'Shapes of Things' and Simon Dupree & The Big Sound covered 'Each And Every Day' as 'Daytime, Nightime'
Tom McGuinness also was an established composer for the group (Manfred was too when he bothered) - so they had three or four decent 'in house' songwriters, plus an ability to quickly spot decent songs (Dylan, Springsteen, Randy Newman etc) and with each being a strong musician (look at Klaus Voormann's seventies pedigree later) plus the fact both d'Abo & Hugg went on to be accomplished singer/songwriters and McGuinness had success in McGuinness Flint (& later reunited with Paul Jones in The Blues Band)...while Mike Vickers became a top arranger (for The Hollies, Cilla Black etc) and helped The Beatles re the synth used on 'Abbey Road' etc ...all would suggest Manfred's apparent 'doubts' re his group were somewhat harsh if not indeed misguided.
Each 'Manfred' we know went on to enjoy some considerable 'post Manfreds success' so Manfred's doubting the ability of his group to cut it in the seventies seems to be him very deeply lacking confidence - yes ?
I think their 'pop' identity rather acutely embarressed them by 1969, and the desperate desire to be taken more seriously (after getting kudos for the 'Up The Junction' soundtrack) plus lacking direction - as did a few top sixties bands by the close of the decade - were the key factors in the split.
a few seventies bands were still using the 'name tag' - Argent, Ellis, even 'Alice Cooper' was initially a overall band name not lead singer Vince own....but everyone assumed he was 'Alice' (like alot thought Paul Jones was 'Manfred' !)
a guy I worked with told me he used to do a paper round which included Manfred's home - a house with an overgrown unkempt front garden...Paul Jones would drive up in his posh car to collect him , A smartly dressed Paul would be be signing autographs for the girls, then Manfred came out in an old mac & got into Paul's car - so Manfred was always an enigmatic figure even at the height of his pop star success !
'Mighty Garvey' was a put together job by Fontana - but Mike Hugg's songs like 'It's So Easy Falling' & 'Each And Every Day' plus Mike d'Abo's 'The Vicar's Daughter' were excellent whimsical and wistful numbers that were as strong as any of the more acclaimed sixties pop tunesmiths were doing, I think the Manfreds just somehow could never harness all their considerable talents into a clear unified direction (a problem later for Earthband too after the 'Angel Station' album when various lead singers were used by Manfred)
sad how little sixties footage seems to survive - I have a poor quality 'Do Wah Diddy Diddy' (from Chris Tarrent's 'OTT' show where Jones & McGuinness were there in The Blues Band & happily 'sing along' together to the old footage of The Manfreds), a shorter alternate clip of the song also exists
'Come Tomorrow', 'My Name is Jack' & 'The Mighty Quinn' are on BBC's 'Sounds of The Sixties' (Top of The pops performances)
I recall them doing 'Hubble Bubble (Toil & Trouble)' on 'Ready Steady Go !' back in the sixties (where a girl runs at Paul Jones & hugs him !)
Rarer stereo mixes of most of the sixties hits 1963-66 era, can be found on that often not mentioned cheap MFP album 'Greatest Hits'
I understand that the unissued third 'Chapter Three' album includes a version of Mike Hugg's song 'Messin' re-cut and used in 1973 as Earthband's album title track (Earthband with Mick Rogers also re-cut 'One Way Glass' from the first 'Chapter Three' album)
the first (self titled) & second ('Glorified Magnified') Earthband albums were originally issued on the Phillips label here in the UK, later they were on Vertigo then Bronze Records.
Paul Jones once said Manfred had(s) an 'open invitation' to join himself, Tom, the two Mikes etc in 'The Manfreds' touring pop nostalgia group but he was/is totally uninterested !
Manfred does seem to only be interested now in reviving his Earthband every so often, yet they DO still perform 'Mighty Quinn' ( and he even played a bit of 'Pretty Flamingo' at a late seventies Earthband concert I saw)
Manfred we know had alot of later success with Earthband (the 'Mick Rogers' & 'Chris Thompson' line ups...echoing the two sixties key line up versions of the Manfreds, being the strongest & my fav line ups in my opinion)
Klaus Voormann became a legendary session player for so many top seventies stars & of course was the famous Beatles (& 'Bee Gees First' 1967 album) cover artist.... Mike Hugg, a very talented musician & songwriter, came from Gosport, Hants - several local places are 'namechecked' in his song 'Blue Suede Shoes Again' on the album 'Somewhere' (1972), after two fine singer/songwriter albums plus a more jazzy style 'Hug' album 'Neon Dreams' all on Polydor and doing the 'Whatever happened To The Likely Lads' BBC TV comedy show theme as 'Highly Likely' Mike seemed to then fade from public view & only later resurfaced in The Manfreds.
Mike d'Abo cut some fine solo singer/songwriter albums - one on UNI Records then in the early seventies on A & M Records - 'Down at Rachel's Place', 'Broken Rainbows' (Graham Nash guesting on harmonica on a few tracks for him) and I have a later solo album 'Indestructible' from 1987 (featuring Ringo's son Zak Starkey on drums), plus Mike did a duo album with The Late Mike Smith (of The Dave Clark Five) - 'Smith & d'Abo' was on Epic Records, several CD collections are out.
Tom McGuinness, besides McGuinness Flint - two early seventies Capitol albums with Gallagher & Lyle, then two further equally good ones on Bronze, 'Happy Birthday Ruthy Baby' & 'Ces't La Vie', there was the 1972 Bob Dylan tribute album 'Lo & Behold' (produced by Manfred Mann and now out on CD) then later Tom & Lou Stonebridge did a duo album 'Corporate Madness' for RCA as 'Stonebridge McGuinness' besides his many Blues Band albums. Paul Jones attended the Portsmouth Grammer school (Portsmouth also being the hometown if not birthplace of The Shulman brothers of Simon Dupree / Gentle Giant) so I assume Paul & Mike Hugg first met up on the local music scene, Paul of course did alot of acting ('Privilige' etc) but did three rather idiosyncratic sixties solo albums between 1966-69 ('My Way', 'Love Me, Love My Fiends', 'Come into My Music Box' all out on CD , then the rare 'Crucifix in a Horseshoe' (1973 - Vertigo, now out on CD ) was in the group 'Q' and more recently 'Starting All Over Again' a more blues based set.
Mike Vickers has done a few solo albums ('I Wish I Was A Group Again', 'A Day at the Races') but was largely a key 'backroom scene' recording studio figure.
hope this is of help / use
if anyone can help me alter my username to my real name (thanks !)
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