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Post by Patrick Coles on Dec 10, 2013 16:37:40 GMT
Then Television will continue going downhill....
as for Graham Williams, I wouldn't have bothered mentioning him anyway, given the tosh he produced...
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Post by Patrick Coles on Dec 9, 2013 16:41:57 GMT
I don't think the show needs any big name 'showrunner' figure - and hopefully not figures such as 'Chibbers' or Gatiss - it needs a decent production TEAM as it used to have
No mention I see in ed's post of the show's key producer Innes Lloyd at all...that is the guy who first joined the show in seaon three back in April 1966 - producing the classic William Hartnell story; 'The Celestial Toymaker', and then got in Gerry Davis & Dr. Kit Pedler (thus gave us The Cybermen), introduced Barry Letts to the show (Lloyd hiring Letts as Director of 'Enemy of The World' in 1968) cast Patrick Troughton as The Doctor, and whose team came up with the whole concept of regeneration etc....
- Innes Lloyd being without doubt one of the MOST important and influential of the show's producers ever - alongside Verity, Barry, and Phil - a key figure on the show, whose vital contribution most fans (I assume those who came onboard later) seem to have either ignored, never known, or forgotten....but a behind the scenes figure with his team who has left more of a ongoing influence on the show than many who are loudly praised from the rooftops both then and now...
Producers/Script Editors Peter Bryant and Derrick Sherwin, also now both seemingly 'forgotten' figures too, under their reign those young lads Bob Holmes and Terry Dicks first got a look in on the show...
All of the better producers each had strong teams pooling their creative ideas rather than just one 'showrunner' (with it seems an obligatory big ego) dictating the direction and style of the show and SACKING those who may fall out with them....
'Dr.Who' really needs to have a strong production team in place with another effective pooling of creative talents, duly harnessed by a producer, but not 'ruled' by any dictatorship overlord if it is to move forward to a stronger period...
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Post by Patrick Coles on Dec 5, 2013 16:56:38 GMT
One point - I'd like to see Peter Capaldi hopefully bring back some DIGNITY to the character of The Doctor !
While it's true that Patrick Troughton was a somewhat 'comical' looking figure Pat nevertheless gave great gravitas to his portrayal thus he was never 'too silly' or not to be taken seriously, maybe third Doctor era writers Bob Baker & Dave Martin got that aspect wrong later in 'The Three Doctors' a bit as The Brigadier while respectful of the Third Doctor seemed to be far 'too dismissive' of the Second Doctor which on watching 'The Web of Fear' or 'The (Cybermen) Invasion' he clearly wasn't before...nor was he later in 'The Five Doctors' as Terrance Dicks clearly got the Second Doctor / Brigadier mutual respect and friendship relationship right !
but later, some of Tom Baker & Colin Baker's weaker stories rather let The Doctor down re his dignity, and poor old Slyv McCoy was almost ordered to: 'BE SILLY !!'
moving onto the present version of the show, we had Chris Eccleston pratting about to Soft Cell, and giving silly grins...then David Tennant 'hanging out of his Police box' as it sped up the motorway (yeah...), plus gurning about with a radiation filled boot in the hospital up on the moon (yeah...) - he's now doing much the same in those Virgin Media TV Commercials for Branson too
now we have Matt Smith 'hanging out of his Police box' as it dangles from a helicopter (Deja Vu ?) and imitating Norman Wisdom or Harold Lloyd...pure slapstick !
Yet one of the greatest strengths of looking back at William Hartnell's Doctor, an elderly figure who often got his words wrong...was his overall strength of character, just a glare and a line like; 'A Dandy and a Clown...' put his two successors firmly in their place - yes he had an offbeat sense of humour but not where danger threatened, and his defiant address to that Dalek early on in 'Dalek Invasion of Earth' was supreme - the Dalek almost 'flinched' !
Jon Pertwee's Doctor was almost always dignified (bar dressing up as a cleaning lady once !)
Peter Davison had a youthful but dignified stance too...
I think one problem re an even younger Doctor(s) is somehow the sense of a more dignified and powerful minded alien character can get lost amid trying to be 'mega cool' all the time...plus then doing all the 'goofy stuff' to seem 'with it' for the precieved target audience...
Hopefully Peter Capaldi can bring some sense of a deeper more dramatic character, that is the 'random element' causing the foe's downfall, which would restore the Doctor's more compelling place in the adventures...making him more the mysterious enigmatic figure who is a 'wanderer in the fourth dimension...walking in eternity' etc
a goonish slapstick twerp hanging out of a Police box in mid air loses a hell of a lot of credibility, especially when it's all been done before...
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Post by Patrick Coles on Dec 4, 2013 21:05:03 GMT
Yes Scott, but do remember that Patrick Troughton (Bless him !) was doing some 48 weeks a year (Like Hartnell) back in the sixties - not just 14 episodes a year or so screened in just SEVEN weeks due to being on twice weekly as Peter 'blink and you almost missed him' Davison was in the eighties
Peter Purves (as first Doctor companion Steven Taylor) was in 'Dr.Who' for just about a year in 1965-66, and he said that he did FORTY FOUR episodes which was MORE than Colin Baker did in his entire 'three year era' as The Doctor....and probably even more than Davison did in his 'three years' too...
so Pat Troughton's 'three years' rule meant ALOT more when he said it than re the ever decreasing show of later years, and can't be compared in realistic terms, especially compared to the sheer amount of episodes/stories the first and second Doctors notched up, and the far longer eras of the third and fourth Doctors too....
While each of the first to fourth Doctors had six part tales, even longer in the sixties, but Davison never had anything longer than a four parter thus his complete stories screened twice weekly were OVER in just two weeks - older tales lasted a month or more...hence a 'Daleks Invasion of Earth' / 'Power of The Daleks' / 'Day of...' / 'Genesis of...' etc stuck in the mind far longer, as you experienced those tales for a far longer period of your time, than say 'Resurrection of...' which was all over in just 2 weeks back at the times of transmission...
I still suspect Davison's agent advised him to get out of 'Dr.Who' fast....hence him dropping out a story early in only his third season, BEFORE the stormy waters hit the show...and go and do shows deemed more 'highbrow' like 'A Very Peculiar Practice' ( with Patrick Troughton's son !) and 'Campion' etc....that is 'proper' adult BBC shows that were not frowned upon by the BBC 'powers that be'...
If that badge belonged to Sophie Aldred herself, then it was not really proper to the character Ace was it....?
and would a punky full of 'street cred' rebellious kid like Ace really be 'seen dead' wearing such a terribly 'old hat' BBC Establishment item ?
- if anything Ace would have been more of a MAGPIE girl ...!
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Post by Patrick Coles on Dec 4, 2013 15:32:55 GMT
I think Alan's got it slightly wrong but I agree with several of his points
Moving the show off Saturday's to the 7 p.m. slot actually increased it's audience, but in retrospect probably only hastened the show's downfall
- putting it on two nights a week was silly as a entire season was over very fast and the show was (like now !!) OFF air alot more than on air (back in the early 80's there were few repeats too unlike earlier...)
the show despite reatining audience figures was going downhill during the Williams/Adams era of supposed 'whimsical comedy' that Adams openly admitted; 'the humour did not come across as intended'
Tom Baker's departure didn't harm the show - some long term fans had given up on all the weak comedic stuff - and under Peter Davison the show grew stronger, however the fact that Davison surprisingly - on his agents advice ? - got out by his third season, even departing a story early, suggests all was not well behind the scenes even then.....
They probably ought to have put it back on Saturdays soon after Peter Davison came in, and ONCE a week as people often missed at least one episode out of the two in the week due to commitments thus were far more likely to then 'give up' on a tale...(was that a part of some BBC mandarins overall plan ?)
John Nathan Turner is a bit of an enigma, he DID restore alot of credibility to the show in Tom Baker's final season & Peter Davison's era, but later he appeared to 'lose the plot' somewhat...in truth many of his decisions only played straight into Grade & co's open hands re the shows planned demise in the late 80's...
He supposedly turned down a chance to produce 'Bergerac' (tho' his idea apparently was to axe John Nettles & relocate it off the Channel Islands - that sounds clever !) and no doubt stuck with Dr.Who to try to keep it on air
BUT allowing some ineptly realised scripts ('Twin Dilemma', 'Timelash'. 'Time & The Rani'), then after the disgraceful sacking of the perfectly accepted by the public Colin Baker ( bar a few vocal over sensitive 'big fans' who had issues about the 'strangling Peri' scene in 'Twin Dilemma' that was over played) plus his casting the abysmally irritating Bonnie Langford as Mel, together with all those out of work and hopelessly out of place old comedians, and the (possibly BBC mandarin forced) casting of the inexperienced at best (& downright weak at worst) Sylvester McCoy - (being repeatedly made to 'look silly' and literally tripped up by some directors) and the mis-casting of middle class if not posh older 'well developed' Sophie Aldred as the younger 'street cred' filled wild child 'Ace' (but wearing a Fabulous 'Blue Peter' Badge ? - honestly BBC...!) all only played into Grade & his lots hands
finally the unecessary 'suspension' during Colin Baker's era, for no tangeable reason & clearly NOT at the time planned (hence the 'freeze' at the end of 'Revelation of The Daleks' so the word 'Blackpool' leading into the next season's fully planned 'The Nightmare Fair' story, was not uttered by Colin Baker), then later after a string of very daft styled stories, then not announcing the next season & finally deliberately 'pitching it' up against 'Coronation Street' in order to finally 'kill the damn thing off' in the ratings....completed Grade's plan (for his BBC mandarin colleagues) even if by then he'd already 'jumped ship' over to Channel Four...to help drag them downhill further...!
Colin Baker's Doctor,(despite some older fans,who had no problem with a absurdly long scarf, going into silly vocal 'meltdown' over a multi coloured coat) was actually very popular with youngsters when he appeared with Peri on a BBC kids show phone in & later when he did the Dr.Who theatre production - so Grade's moans re the show bore no relation to reality, even if by then the show did need freshening up with a new producer (as it would normally by then have received had things been more normal at the BBC)
So in many ways 'Doctor Who' would have been o.k. had JNT only done a 'Barry Letts' circa 1970, and played to the show's basic core strengths and kept the stories more readily acessable & adventuresome, thus easier for all to enjoy, rather than going all 'mega complex' with unseen back stories in places, plus far too lightweight with mis-cast comedians, and questionable 'Evelyn Waugh' parodies and allowing some absurd 'panto' styled acting & monsters in some tales...for that JNT no doubt put some people off watching the show altogether (I knew more than one long term fan who 'gave up on it' at that time) with an inexperienced lead actor, initially at least looking totally out of his depth, dressed in question mark jumper & holding question mark umbrella looking something of a joke being chased by vacuum cleaner machines with faces, big 'Bertie Bassett' Kandy man etc....
JNT maybe unintentionally putting the rope firmly around the show's neck so those BBC mandarins could firmly pull it...
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Post by Patrick Coles on Dec 3, 2013 16:35:50 GMT
Grade also wanted 'wall to wall' Wogan inflicting upon us all Mr. Wogan's endless trivialising of everything and his eternal 'interviewing himself' while a guest sat and listened in on us each weekday night, it was also,of course, 'mega cheapo' television...
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Post by Patrick Coles on Dec 3, 2013 9:39:38 GMT
Re Scott's point - that was not long before Grade 'jumped ship' and went over to Channel Four, which tells us everything about him !
What was Terrance Dicks saying about 'not fit for purpose...' ?
Grade's OWN opinions were totally irrelavent and should not have been a factor in what programmes were or were not commissioned, the BBC were owned by the public who clearly DID enjoy Dr.Who as it had retained a core audience over decades...thus whatever the controller may or may not have liked or watched personally should not have ever come into the question at all - should it ?
One tends to think Grade was very probably only in position thanks to his family connections (could he really be related to Lord Lew Grade ? - just imagine Michael Grade being in key position over shows such as Patrick McGoohan's show; 'The Prisoner' etc....)
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Post by Patrick Coles on Dec 2, 2013 23:52:12 GMT
I would imagine it's because many probably feel somewhat cheated !
- the public wanted 'Doctor Who' back in 2005, that is a modern effects & better sets based version of what they recognised as the same basic show that was so popular from the early sixties to late eighties, a show that had very differing eras but was clearly linked all together in core 'attitude' and 'spirit' with essentially a decent continuity if not always perfect, the public then just wanted THAT show back duly modernised and improved production wise, but with the same spirit....
now some folk might argue 'thats what they/we got...' but it really wasn't in truth - we got a totally new show that wasn't 'aimed at everyone' at all, we got a show firmly aimed at a certain section of the viewing public - BBC's idea of youth, a crowd with short attention spans who didn't delve deeply into a storyline and were quite happy with just 'style over substance'
Thus the 2005 onwards show really has very little in common with what went before besides a Police box, a few older foes lifted from the past version, plus some character names, and a new arrangement of the theme tune.
So those who wanted/expected a more recognisable new version of 'Dr.Who' - which a number of production companies, including Verity Lambert's were 'champing at the bit' to deliver - probably feel they were cheated in that BBC handed the thing over to a writer with NO previous experience in the field...just a soapish styled writer who wrote the infantile humour of 'The Chuckle Brothers' which duly often turned up in his version of Dr.Who with 'burping wheelie bins', farty blobby aliens, and a selection of zoo animal type foes - pig men, rhino men, bee men, cat people, etc...while he used the show to regularly push his own agendas, and 'distanced' it firmly from the original in style and attitude.
The Doctor character as a result became essentially a humanised but a pretty clueless 'taxi driver' marginalised figure taking virtually a sidekick role to the teenage chav Rose that the writer was far more comfortable depicting and featuring...
Hence perhaps Chris Eccleston and producer Phil Collinson's; 'Who writes this RUBBISH ?' questions....THEIR comments not ours !
Moffat later dropped all Davies' obligatory agendas but he can't get away from centering it on 'feisty young girls', and forever featuring a smug 'know all' woman and children as he dresses up his tales with 'Timey Whimey' silly paradoxes to hide the fact on deeper thought his supposedly mega 'complex' tales fall apart like 'chinese whispers'
I think that A chunk of the viewing public steadfastly watch on in loyalty to the show's name the HOPE the show will eventually pick up and get back to resembling it's original version(s)...which may yet happen - there are a few signs notably Peter Capaldi's casting breaking through the 'age ceiling' at last...
but until that happens I think those people who preferred and had expected a returning show they could recognise as 'Dr.Who' will just continue to be frustrated and disappointed by the current programme BBC Wales offer up
we get the same bunch of guys writing the same type of thing over and over, forever plundering the old show's writers ideas and creativity...and doing very little with them..
Personally I gave up on it some years back when it became clear it was just essentially repeating the same formula over and over and over ad nausium ...i.e something along the lines of: A feisty girl companion who has a mystery about her replaces a feisty girl companion who had a mystery about her, and The Doctor fumbles from story to story one minute the big 'oncoming storm' the next utterly helpless and needing bailing out by a feisty female or a smug know all woman - also with a mystery about her - , with 're-set' buttons forever being pressed and vast CGI invasion fleets suddenly all vanishing, with vast unseen back stories to which GREAT importance is attached...but which we never see properly develop in any logical narrative with no clear or logical explanations ever given...etc...
it's just 'same old same old'...from essentially the same circle of writers, and going by that 50th anniversary thing the last two Doctors had very little to distinguish between them...much like 'Ant and Dec' while John Hurt just played an older guy, the feel of the show was utterly predictable and it appeared to have moved nowhere since 2005, unless a radical revamp is undertaken, the current show's days may be numbered as a faction within the BBC don't seem to like it and despite great viewing figures for the 50th show MORE interest seems to have been in the recently rediscovered sixties episodes than the current show - which when you stop and think about it is really not a healthy sign....
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Post by Patrick Coles on Dec 2, 2013 10:16:54 GMT
A sad loss
Interesting how in that 'Obsession' episode of 'The New Avengers' Lewis Collins says to Martin Shaw 'we must work together again sometime...' (and so they did)
while in another 'New Avengers' episode there is a minor character who gets killed named; 'George Cowley' !
Brian Clemens & Albert Fennell made both shows, The Professionals being an 'Avengers Mark One' production
Lewis Collins was indeed in a later line up of The Mojos ...and his father Bill Collins was the first manager of the ill fated band Badfinger.
Lewis played an amusing 'oily ladies man' character along with the lovely Diane Keen (who guested in 'The Professionals' episode; 'Killer With A Long Arm' shown on ITV 4 yesterday) in 'The Cuckoo Waltz' comedy show, proving he could do more than just be a macho action man figure like Bodie, a role that probably typecast him.
apparently his James Bond audition was deemed 'too aggressive' - at the time, circa 1981-83 they preferred the smooth if elderly Roger Moore, despite a move by 'The Sun' newspaper to get Collins as the next Bond...
His film 'Who Dares Wins' was good but was unlikely to appeal to Americans...!
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Post by Patrick Coles on Dec 2, 2013 10:02:14 GMT
Yeah I thought it was all 'rumours' re Eccleston - his apparent concerns re 'the production style' says alot tho' !
I've also read that he clashed with the producer Phil Collinson too, the excuse in the press at the time was that 'staying in Cardiff for 13 weeks made him miss his girlfriend too much...' (aahh...)
which when you consider the much older William Hartnell was staying in digs weekdays whilst doing the show some 48 weeks a year for three years (hence Verity gave him the odd week off, which is why we got a 'Doctor lite' or absent episode in many stories then)...only made Eccleston look a bit of a feeble plonker ! (tho' presumably the press story was fabricated, but it hardly made him look very good....)
re above, besides the Ice Warriors Jon Pertwee's Doctor also encountered the Cybermen too....in 'The Five Doctors' (when a Rassilon warrior robot sorted them out) ...and a Cyberman is seen as one of the imprisoned creatures within the miniscope in 'Carnival of Monsters' too
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Post by Patrick Coles on Dec 1, 2013 20:15:23 GMT
Do we know that for a fact ?
that might be what was later claimed...but was it really true at the time...?
seems odd Eccleston talked of 'looking forward to being The Doctor for a whole new generation of children'...if he planned beforehand to quit after a mere 13 episodes
He also had spoken of looking forward to 'dressing in period costume for each story' (as William Hartnell often did)...yet he turned up in a current leather jacket looking like he'd just left the pub or the betting office, and wore that everyday 'clobber' pretty much throughout his very short stint...
thus his shock exit duly 'co*cking up' all the pre-planned memorabilia, toys , etc that originally bore his image or face for the Xmas market...a good number of marketing items were apparently rendered redundant by his departure I can recall reading in the press at the time..
even the 'Dr.Who' annual that year looked odd with him depicted with weird eyes yet Tennant looking much more normal - surely that was never any originally planned idea ? - bring a character back with a 'new face' after umpteen years off air then CHANGE it almost immediately ?....yeah !!
and a few interviews I read at the time strongly suggested the 'Bad Wolf' saga was being made up as Davies went along and that NO big regeneration scene was originally planned to go in at the end of it...David Tennant hadn't been cast when Eccleston departed either so no 'handing over' scene was done with the pair
odd too that Eccleston apparently had some sort of 'gagging order' lasting a number of years following his departure, and he refused to do any DVD commentaries - with rumours that the abrupt departure of Caroline Skinner from the present show was something to do with Eccleston not appearing in the 50th Anniversary show...
Eccleston's quick exit announced before the first series even had properly got going looks about as 'planned' as George Lazenby's from the James Bond role was.....!
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Post by Patrick Coles on Dec 1, 2013 14:31:26 GMT
funnily enough TIME is the key factor here....
when we look back later we see the 'acid test of Time' reveal the strengths and cruelly expose the limitations of an earlier TV show, film, or album, etc
'Rose' and the 2005 series was firmly aimed at a certain mindset, and with 'agendas' repeatedly and heavy handedly rammed home again and again - a clear Anti Royals bias, an Anti God, Anti Americans, anti middle classes, firm bias with a Gay aspect and pro Welsh promoting angle, plus an uncomfortable sexual undercurrent (references to having oral sex with faces in paving stones, etc) 'shoehorned in' as often as possible
Males were totally superflous thus got portrayed in a totally negative manner....even The Doctor, this supposedly much feared great 'oncoming storm' legend in his own lunchtime...needed a female teenage chav to bail him out, left, right and crentre (Fantastic !!)
no wonder Chris Eccleston 'jumped ship' ASAP....then swam as far away from the thing as he could !
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Post by Patrick Coles on Dec 1, 2013 12:53:41 GMT
I don't doubt you are quite right...but then that only emphasises the gulf between 'classic' and 'new' show - and they ought to be treating it as one and the same, which had they kept to the 'core strengths' of the original and just modernised the look and not radically altered (or indeed 'ba*stardised') the 'spirit' of the Dr.Who show would have been no problem at all...
the likes of, say, Barry Letts and Phil Hinchcliffe could take a deserved bow for THEIR eras and work, but at the same time they both were upholding and continuing a much loved and firmly established 'British TV Institution'
- it's the likes of Davies and Moffat who were keen to 'distance' THEIR modern show from the 'wobbling walls' sad old 'joke of a show' that THEY themselves tagged the decades running classic era show as being....thus if now their modern show starts to fall apart in retrospect over time as being all 'style over substance' then any such angst Moffat might now feel when his budget cutback modern show is put up against the revered classic 1963-1989 version has largely been of his own creation...
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Post by Patrick Coles on Dec 1, 2013 12:42:35 GMT
It's interesting how in this interview that Hartnell clearly seems to think his acting career was 'Far from being over...' per this brief clip,
I agree the questions were pretty inane in the most part, but Hartnell here sounds very clear and 'matter of fact' (much easier in real life than remembering set lines of course !)
he appears to be far more the 'Grumpy Sergeant' character he got so stereotyped as in; 'The Army Game' Carry on Sergeant' (as Sgts Bullymore & Grimshaw !) , 'The Way Ahead' & P.O. in 'The Yangstse Incident'- showing how MUCH doddery old 'Grandfather' getting words wrong...was a intentionally acted characterisation of The first Doctor !
sadly tho' we now know he WAS unwell....which came out through short fuse temper rather than any clear indication of failing health, his retirement from acting after the short panto run was no surprise
tho' he DID of course make one more final acting appearance....duly addressing 'a dandy and a clown' !
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Post by Patrick Coles on Dec 1, 2013 12:16:05 GMT
I can never understand why Moffat (or anyone) belittles the Classic Dr.Who show - without which WHERE would Moffat be now...?
the current show & BBC should be celebrating NOT so much their 'NooWho' (2005 onwards) as it gets termed but 'Doctor Who' from 1963 (as Mark Gatiss drama did) which ran up to 1989 and is the show that is now fifty years old, and it's core strengths are every bit as applicable to make a decent modern version of the show with, rather than the very (BBC perceived) 'youth culture' show Davies & Moffat have firmly targeted their versions at - one wonders just how long 'their' shows would have lasted ? (Davies was gone - and his very particular style with all his 'agendas'etc - within a few years & Moffat it is hinted may be off soon)
Moffat does appear to have been 'unpicking' alot of Davies more recent stuff too - notice how that Tardis console is gradually getting back to a modern take of the older style as opposed to bells, bike pumps etc, plus the whole 'Time War' & Evil Timelords thing with Gallifrey destroyed & 'LAST of the Timelords' saga (per Davies) has been reversed ! (so HOW successful really was Davies version ?)
Back in the sixties when Innes Lloyd took over, he initially considered keeping the Hartnell styled Doctor...then hit upon transforming the character (tho' keeping some core aspects of it just as Hartnell had established it) and immediately pitched his 'New' Doctor against the SAME old Daleks....with the Cybermen quickly returing, Lloyd dropped the historical stories after 'The Highlanders' but kept much of the 1965-66 'feel' of the show in place modernising it here and there but essentially the same premise to the show...Peter Bryant did likewise - The Colonel/Brigadier & Army/UNIT soldiers of 'Web of Fear' / 'Cybermen Invasion' had their roots in the earlier Hartnell tale; 'The War Machines' (1966)- where The Doctor first helps the present day Earth security forces - and duly set it up for Pertwee's later seventies colour Earth exile era...thus the entire thing WAS firmly linked continuity & overall style wise
yet Moffat has had to slowly 'unpick' just about everything of Davies much lauded 're-invention' of the show....and this may be a very good sign for the future, but it hints for all the glowing tho' possibly sycophantic praise of the 2005 onwards show - both producer Phil Collinson and Chris Eccleston apparently asked; 'who writes this RUBBISH ? - they had in fact gone way OTT and aimed the show far too much at a perceived short attention span youth culture audience (actually rather insulting that audience intelligence, particularly that of young women & girls by turning the thing into a silly emo driven soapish style love story thing...with Rose, Martha 'loving' The Doctor, then the drippy Amy & Rory thing etc...)
Hopefully with Peter Capaldi & better writers the show can get itself properly back on track with the stories being the main thing - as opposed to the emotions of the 'feisty' female companions !
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