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Post by Rich Cornock on Dec 23, 2013 17:04:12 GMT
I agree, perhaps the best idea is to put this film in safe storage in the hope that something can be done in the future. Who knows what can be done one day,for example i never would have thought the idea of recolouring film using the chroma dots would have been possible until recently
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RWels
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Post by RWels on Dec 23, 2013 18:56:46 GMT
Or not: Film is less and less used these days even in the movie industry. Better make use of chemical experts in that area while they're still around.
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Post by Simon B Kelly on Dec 23, 2013 20:39:09 GMT
Or not: Film is less and less used these days even in the movie industry. Better make use of chemical experts in that area while they're still around. During the panel discussion, Terry Jones was saying that he always keeps the rushes (the raw footage from each day's film shooting schedule) from everything he directs. John Henshall, who was in the audience, asked his what format they were on, and Terry admitted that he's shooting everything digitally these days. A film print can still be struck from the final edit but with most cinemas now completely digital even this isn't always necessary.
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RWels
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Post by RWels on Dec 23, 2013 21:26:51 GMT
Or not: Film is less and less used these days even in the movie industry. Better make use of chemical experts in that area while they're still around. During the panel discussion, Terry Jones was saying that he always keeps the rushes (the raw footage from each day's film shooting schedule) from everything he directs. John Henshall, who was in the audience, asked his what format they were on, and Terry admitted that he's shooting everything digitally these days. A film print can still be struck from the final edit but with most cinemas now completely digital even this isn't always necessary. Some Hollywood films are still shot this way, but cinemas have all been converted. But why I brought it up is because mostly the result will be that very specialistic knowledge will slowly be lost. There's an amazing range of ways to chemically store visual information known to a few people only, or so I read in a Dick Francis novel (and his novel's weird specialist details like that were always correct). Heck, it could become a contest/competition for chemics: Come up with a way to unwind and scan this film.
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Post by Paul McDermott on Dec 23, 2013 23:53:22 GMT
During the panel discussion, Terry Jones was saying that he always keeps the rushes (the raw footage from each day's film shooting schedule) from everything he directs. John Henshall, who was in the audience, asked his what format they were on, and Terry admitted that he's shooting everything digitally these days. A film print can still be struck from the final edit but with most cinemas now completely digital even this isn't always necessary. Some Hollywood films are still shot this way, but cinemas have all been converted. But why I brought it up is because mostly the result will be that very specialistic knowledge will slowly be lost. There's an amazing range of ways to chemically store visual information known to a few people only, or so I read in a Dick Francis novel (and his novel's weird specialist details like that were always correct). Heck, it could become a contest/competition for chemics: Come up with a way to unwind and scan this film. Like an X Prize for film conservation? A lot of studios would potentially benefit, and their customers, ditto those working to preserve the past.
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RWels
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Post by RWels on Dec 24, 2013 0:49:14 GMT
Not sure it would have any other application. Sometimes rescue comes from a solution made for just 1 purpose. Pompei body casts & scroll reading for example, or closer to the subject, chroma dot colour recovery and that LoC machine to bring back paper prints.
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Post by Neil Lambess on Dec 24, 2013 2:25:58 GMT
I agree, perhaps the best idea is to put this film in safe storage in the hope that something can be done in the future. Who knows what can be done one day,for example i never would have thought the idea of recolouring film using the chroma dots would have been possible until recently the problem with Vinegar syndrome is that once its well advanced ,the print has basicly reached its endpoint , so "safe storage" becomes a very grey area.... (im a bit out of date but...) general consensus was that storing film in the can accelarates VS (but its dependant on if the cause of VS was a chemical imbalance in the film stock and a slew of other factors ) so its often beter to leave the reels open at a stable temperature or dry freeze them to stop the chemical process......(both of which can turn out to be expensive and therefore not cost effective.....) Pauls already said the emulsions sliding off (from the acetate) , so its IMHO its probably a goner
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Post by Paul McDermott on Dec 24, 2013 3:26:16 GMT
I agree, perhaps the best idea is to put this film in safe storage in the hope that something can be done in the future. Who knows what can be done one day,for example i never would have thought the idea of recolouring film using the chroma dots would have been possible until recently the problem with Vinegar syndrome is that once its well advanced ,the print has basicly reached its endpoint , so "safe storage" becomes a very grey area.... (im a bit out of date but...) general consensus was that storing film in the can accelarates VS (but its dependant on if the cause of VS was a chemical imbalance in the film stock and a slew of other factors ) so its often beter to leave the reels open at a stable temperature or dry freeze them to stop the chemical process......(both of which can turn out to be expensive and therefore not cost effective.....) Pauls already said the emulsions sliding off (from the acetate) , so its IMHO its probably a goner Reminds me of Roy Batty's angry confrontation with Eldon Tyrell toward the end of Blade Runner: Bioscience has marched on since '82, but I don't think there's presently anything analogous to gene therapy for film, is there? Film degradation seems to be a messy and uncertain business, so many variables, I can see how this is a hard problem and in the digital era, probably tough to get adequate funding to address. Heck, with the money that already doesn't go towards things we can solve, let alone things that need it - quite apart from Art - I guess it's no wonder. Still, the process of arresting decay and stabilizing the patient, brings to mind surgery as a model. The chemical angle, mentioned by RWels, makes me wonder if the known classes of compounds used in restoration and conservation could benefit from a distributed computing search for new and better ones. The implementation, the surgical technique if you will, would surely not be nearly as easily refined. Does the BFI and the like have experimental labs to explore new approaches, or is there a collaborative international body that has such a focus?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 24, 2013 11:59:55 GMT
During the panel discussion, Terry Jones was saying that he always keeps the rushes (the raw footage from each day's film shooting schedule) from everything he directs. John Henshall, who was in the audience, asked his what format they were on, and Terry admitted that he's shooting everything digitally these days. A film print can still be struck from the final edit but with most cinemas now completely digital even this isn't always necessary. I was also quite shocked to find out that the Life Of Brian rushes were junked when the ownership of them passed to RBS. Not sure what year this happened but Terry sounded (understandably) frustrated by this turn of events. The short term view is always the one which wins in these situations, it seems.
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RWels
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Post by RWels on Dec 24, 2013 13:11:19 GMT
I was also quite shocked to find out that the Life Of Brian rushes were junked when the ownership of them passed to RBS. Not sure what year this happened but Terry sounded (understandably) frustrated by this turn of events. The short term view is always the one which wins in these situations, it seems. In these examples, at least. But that's some 15 years ago, why did Terry react to it now? Anyway he's got one or two raw cuts on umatic. And for me, while the Otto storyline is really something special, the other deleted scenes on the DVD were deleted for a (good) reason.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 24, 2013 14:31:28 GMT
With sort of contained frustration and annoyance. Resigned to it now, I suppose, if it was about 15 years ago. I hadn't heard about this before though.
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Post by John Green on Dec 24, 2013 15:20:19 GMT
With sort of contained frustration and annoyance. Resigned to it now, I suppose, if it was about 15 years ago. I hadn't heard about this before though. "Jim.Someone was telling me that some creep shot your dog back when you were....Jim?Why are you crying,mate?".
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Post by martinjwills on Dec 24, 2013 20:28:06 GMT
I agree, perhaps the best idea is to put this film in safe storage in the hope that something can be done in the future. Who knows what can be done one day,for example i never would have thought the idea of recolouring film using the chroma dots would have been possible until recently I wonder if there are examples of existing programmes as T/Rs in the same condition as the Morecambe & Wise T/R, when chroma dot recovery was being developed they used something that still existed as original and a B&W T/R to work on and compare. If we have some films in the same state, that don't matter that much, we could try many very radical methods to see if any work, without damage to anything valuable.
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RWels
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Post by RWels on Dec 27, 2013 14:21:06 GMT
Well, Paul, let us know if there's any news later. If the emulsion was fixed once, perhaps it can be fixed again (but I'm speaking without any real knowledge of chemistry). Nothing to lose, anyway.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 27, 2013 14:29:53 GMT
I wonder if there are examples of existing programmes as T/Rs in the same condition as the Morecambe & Wise T/R, when chroma dot recovery was being developed they used something that still existed as original and a B&W T/R to work on and compare. If we have some films in the same state, that don't matter that much, we could try many very radical methods to see if any work, without damage to anything valuable. You mean where the original colour VT and a b/w t/r of the same exist? The 29/1/70 TOTP edition survives this way (part of it on colour VT, with the complete show as a b/w t/r). Early colour recovery work was done on this programme, so as to compare the results with the original master material.
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