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Post by raybadrick on Dec 21, 2013 22:16:57 GMT
I went to both sessions and really enjoyed the documentary and the second session. I wanted to ask a question but got a bit nervous but I will ask on here and hope Chris or Dick will reply.
With regards to the ITV Archive how well is this catalogue and are there hopes that Shows believed Missing will turn up. I use Sergeant Cork as an example where the status was unknown until Network were looking to release on DVD. The second question relates to Phil Morris and his BBC / ITV Finds when the titles are revealed and restored will it be the aim to have a special season at the Southbank.
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Post by iwest on Dec 22, 2013 9:52:41 GMT
The question and answer session in the second part was more of a talk with, I believe, only two questions asked neither of which were about how much had been returned from Africa). Yeah, I was hoping that one of the questions would follow up on what Dick Fiddy said in the doc earlier about the Africa returns, which (based on what he said there) seems like quite an extraordinary development that goes far beyond a few episodes of Dr. Who. Although I'm sure others would have asked questions if they had gotten a chance; as far as I could see they just stopped it right there after a couple of questions without even seeing if anyone else had anything they wished to ask. Maybe they were running late though. It was fairly jaw-dropping, although now I've discovered it's a Randy Newman song it makes a lot more sense. It's still very odd seeing it performed in such an irony-free context though. The ironic thing is I have Newman's "Lonely At The Top" compilation (where it's the opening track) and yet I still failed to recognise it for what it was yesterday. I guess it just wasn't what I was expecting to hear at all.
I really enjoyed the material presented though; particularly the BBC-3 sketches, can someone confirm what survives of this? From googling it seems there are some complete episodes, although I couldn't seem to find a list anywhere.
The Westward Television doc was also a highlight, if only for its general ineptness. Then again I guess it was only ever meant to be shown to potential advertisers and not the general public (otherwise it would have shown a bit more tact in places...)
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Post by Paul Vanezis on Dec 22, 2013 10:28:49 GMT
Hi all,
I want to add a bit of clarity to this, because I really don't think spreading rumours, or chinese whispers or making unqualified statements as fact is helpful. It certainly isn't helpful to those of us interested in new recoveries.
I'll also remind you that this post, and others on the site are for the benefit of the members here, protected and may not be reproduced elsewhere, although this post can be directly linked to and viewed by anyone.
I wasn't at the BFI yesterday and I haven't seen the documentary, but I've been told about the content. Therefore I'll cover what I know to be the case about the situation referred to regarding Philip and TIEA.
The first thing I should say is that although I know Philip well, I do not work for his company. It's a private company and like any business protects its commercial interests, including their client list and ongoing projects.
There has been talk of thousands of cans of films being found and returned to the UK from a single country by TIEA. This hasn't happened. Whilst it's possible that thousands of cans could have been accrued, a single delivery of that size would be a logistical nightmare to handle. It has also been said that any BBC material (if there is indeed anymore) has already been handed back to the BBC. That isn't true.
The only things handed back to the BBC from TIEA are:
Doctor Who - The Web of Fear 1-2, 4-6 Doctor Who - The Enemy of the World 1-6 The Sky at Night - Manned Bases on the Moon (1963) The Sky at Night - Solar Flares (1963) The Morecambe and Wise Show - Series 1 Episode 2 (1968)
The first three of the above came back from Nigeria, the second 'Sky' and 'Morecambe and Wise' from a different country AIUI.
The BBC is obviously very pleased to have material back from any source, but there has been undue criticism of them for not announcing new discoveries or the fabled big haul. Let's get this straight; the BBC will only make an announcement if they have something else to announce and they don't. They haven't been given anything else. I know that Philip is extremely busy at the moment and that work is ongoing cataloguing what he has, but that work isn't going to happen to the timescale some want it to. It's Phil's business, not mine and certainly not anyone elses.
Regarding the 'Morecambe and Wise' film, which was returned in 2012, when I collected it, it was in extremely poor condition, suffering from advanced acetate breakdown. The film was covered in a thick sticky tar like substance and the smell of vinegar from it was overpowering. It was taken directly to the BBC at Perivale where it was assessed and they concluded that it was not recoverable. The BFI had expressed an interest in looking at it so it was sent to Berkhamsted where their preservation experts also gave it the once over. They too decided that it was too far gone. Finally, I collected the film from them to see if a more drastic method could be used to recover anything. I too have given up on it; it's simply impossible to get anything off the film without the emulsion smearing away across the film base.
So what happens next? I and others will continue to advise Phil and he and his team will carry on with their work. I'm sure in the fullness of time they'll have completed their cataloging. However, they need to get on with it without the bizarre scrutiny some feel is necessary. I'm sure if TIEA find any more missing programmes they will announce them.
Regards,
Paul
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 22, 2013 10:32:49 GMT
Another very interesting MBW this year. My highlights were the newly discovered BBC-3 material and the sole four minute excerpt from On The Margin (wonderful sketch that makes me sad the whole series is missing). Also, the short colour recovered extract from Steptoe & Son: A Winter's Tale - excellent work! The Kal documentary was very well made and held it's focus for the whole duration (other programmes of this kind usually go of track after a while), which was an achievement. The programme deserves a wider audience and hopefully can be used as a useful tool in raising the profile of missing TV.
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Post by iwest on Dec 22, 2013 11:10:43 GMT
Yeah the documentary was very entertaining (the commercial breaks were a nice touch.) I also have to give it credit for giving the broadcasters a fair hearing. When they expressed it the way they did in terms of the cost of blank video tape vs the cost of making the shows themselves, it was not hard to see why so little footage from that period survives in its original format. There were a few issues with audio sync that made this screening of the doc slightly less than optimal, but nothing that couldn't easily be sorted, I'm sure...
With regards to Paul's post, it's helped to clarify a lot (as well as dampen down my expectations considerably after yesterday.) I guess what I take away from this is that there is material that Philip Morris is finding that has not yet been handed back to the broadcasters. Paul doesn't mention the Basil Brush Show episode for instance, which PM has stated in interview as something that has definitely been recovered. I'm sure Paul is correct in saying that this hasn't yet been returned to the BBC, but it does seem to prove that there are further discoveries being made which will be announced in the fullness of time. In the meantime it's inevitable that speculation will abound I guess.
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Post by John Green on Dec 22, 2013 11:15:24 GMT
Surely the BBC documentary/series must be called 'Bringing it all Back Home'?
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Post by raybadrick on Dec 22, 2013 11:37:22 GMT
Paul
I can only talk for myself but I do not spread rumours or Chinese Whispers and I rarely frequent these boards but I am just talking in general about the event yesterday, which was an enjoyable one and it was a shame you missed it. You really need to speak to the guys who made the documentary and ask why included the TIEA information in the depth they did as it was always bound to raise questions.
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Post by iwest on Dec 22, 2013 11:50:46 GMT
I must admit I didn't read Paul's post as being aimed at posters on here necessarily. Although he was clearly choosing his words carefully so you have to read between the lines a bit.
I did find it a bit odd yesterday that statements were made in the doc prefaced by a disclaimer along the lines of "these are just rumours obviously." I can see why that kind of thing might cause friction elsewhere.
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RWels
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Post by RWels on Dec 22, 2013 12:35:32 GMT
Regarding the 'Morecambe and Wise' film, which was returned in 2012, when I collected it, it was in extremely poor condition, suffering from advanced acetate breakdown. The film was covered in a thick sticky tar like substance and the smell of vinegar from it was overpowering. It was taken directly to the BBC at Perivale where it was assessed and they concluded that it was not recoverable. The BFI had expressed an interest in looking at it so it was sent to Berkhamsted where their preservation experts also gave it the once over. They too decided that it was too far gone. Finally, I collected the film from them to see if a more drastic method could be used to recover anything. I too have given up on it; it's simply impossible to get anything off the film without the emulsion smearing away across the film base. That is a pity (even though M&W bore me to death, personally). Have you thought about consulting some American experts? They have a lot of expertise with film (for movies). The LoC for example has built a device (several, in fact, as technology progressed) to scan their unique collection of "paper prints", almost as neat a trick as chroma dot recovery. Then there's the MOMA, GEH, and such. Who knows, perhaps treating it like you would treat undevelloped film might help. The sound exists off air so just the picture would suffice.
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Post by Greg H on Dec 22, 2013 13:54:02 GMT
Although he was clearly choosing his words carefully so you have to read between the lines a bit. I beg to differ. Maybe I was missing something but it seemed without layers of metaphor :/
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Post by Greg H on Dec 22, 2013 13:58:39 GMT
Regarding the 'Morecambe and Wise' film, which was returned in 2012, when I collected it, it was in extremely poor condition, suffering from advanced acetate breakdown. The film was covered in a thick sticky tar like substance and the smell of vinegar from it was overpowering. It was taken directly to the BBC at Perivale where it was assessed and they concluded that it was not recoverable. The BFI had expressed an interest in looking at it so it was sent to Berkhamsted where their preservation experts also gave it the once over. They too decided that it was too far gone. Finally, I collected the film from them to see if a more drastic method could be used to recover anything. I too have given up on it; it's simply impossible to get anything off the film without the emulsion smearing away across the film base. That is a pity (even though M&W bore me to death, personally). Have you thought about consulting some American experts? They have a lot of expertise with film (for movies). The LoC for example has built a device (several, in fact, as technology progressed) to scan their unique collection of "paper prints", almost as neat a trick as chroma dot recovery. Then there's the MOMA, GEH, and such. Who knows, perhaps treating it like you would treat undevelloped film might help. The sound exists off air so just the picture would suffice. Yep, always tragic when a unique print is beyond help. I wonder what kind of funding would be required to involve the LoC if there is any chance at all of recovery?
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Post by Alex Weidmann on Dec 22, 2013 15:18:45 GMT
Hi all, I want to add a bit of clarity to this, because I really don't think spreading rumours, or chinese whispers or making unqualified statements as fact is helpful. It certainly isn't helpful to those of us interested in new recoveries. I'll also remind you that this post, and others on the site are for the benefit of the members here, protected and may not be reproduced elsewhere, although this post can be directly linked to and viewed by anyone. I wasn't at the BFI yesterday and I haven't seen the documentary, but I've been told about the content. Therefore I'll cover what I know to be the case about the situation referred to regarding Philip and TIEA. The first thing I should say is that although I know Philip well, I do not work for his company. It's a private company and like any business protects its commercial interests, including their client list and ongoing projects. There has been talk of thousands of cans of films being found and returned to the UK from a single country by TIEA. This hasn't happened. Whilst it's possible that thousands of cans could have been accrued, a single delivery of that size would be a logistical nightmare to handle. It has also been said that any BBC material (if there is indeed anymore) has already been handed back to the BBC. That isn't true. The only things handed back to the BBC from TIEA are: Doctor Who - The Web of Fear 1-2, 4-6 Doctor Who - The Enemy of the World 1-6 The Sky at Night - Manned Bases on the Moon (1963) The Sky at Night - Solar Flares (1963) The Morecambe and Wise Show - Series 1 Episode 2 (1968) The first three of the above came back from Nigeria, the second 'Sky' and 'Morecambe and Wise' from a different country AIUI. The BBC is obviously very pleased to have material back from any source, but there has been undue criticism of them for not announcing new discoveries or the fabled big haul. Let's get this straight; the BBC will only make an announcement if they have something else to announce and they don't. They haven't been given anything else. I know that Philip is extremely busy at the moment and that work is ongoing cataloguing what he has, but that work isn't going to happen to the timescale some want it to. It's Phil's business, not mine and certainly not anyone elses. Regarding the 'Morecambe and Wise' film, which was returned in 2012, when I collected it, it was in extremely poor condition, suffering from advanced acetate breakdown. The film was covered in a thick sticky tar like substance and the smell of vinegar from it was overpowering. It was taken directly to the BBC at Perivale where it was assessed and they concluded that it was not recoverable. The BFI had expressed an interest in looking at it so it was sent to Berkhamsted where their preservation experts also gave it the once over. They too decided that it was too far gone. Finally, I collected the film from them to see if a more drastic method could be used to recover anything. I too have given up on it; it's simply impossible to get anything off the film without the emulsion smearing away across the film base. So what happens next? I and others will continue to advise Phil and he and his team will carry on with their work. I'm sure in the fullness of time they'll have completed their cataloging. However, they need to get on with it without the bizarre scrutiny some feel is necessary. I'm sure if TIEA find any more missing programmes they will announce them. Regards, Paul I wonder, is there any chance of recovering single frame stills from the "Morcambe and Wise"? Also have those "Sky At Night"s been broadcast since their recovery? If so I missed them
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Post by John Endicott on Dec 22, 2013 15:55:37 GMT
I wonder, is there any chance of recovering single frame stills from the "Morcambe and Wise"? Also have those "Sky At Night"s been broadcast since their recovery? If so I missed them The Moonbases one can be viewed on the BBCs website: www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p00m72mf
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Post by Alex Weidmann on Dec 22, 2013 15:58:10 GMT
Thanks! Will give it a look.
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Post by Paul Vanezis on Dec 22, 2013 17:45:00 GMT
I wonder, is there any chance of recovering single frame stills from the "Morcambe and Wise"? I will try and photograph the film after the holiday. It's in my garage at the moment. It's not in a happy state. I think the big problem facing Philip when he started was the fractured state of many of the archives he first visited. The only reason things survived in Nigeria was because some material hadn't been sent to central storage in Lagos in 1977, which is what should have happened to it. This meant that forgotten material lay on shelves for years. We all benefited from that in 1984 when Ian Levine got 14 films back from what used to be Midwest TV. 'The Sky at Night' was a miracle, found as I understand it at what used to be RKTV in Abuja. Not every station was as easy to get into and it took quite some time to find out what was in Jos. What was left in Lagos was destroyed. The first countries Phil visited in 2008 were Zambia, Kenya, Ethiopia and Uganda. When he came back, it was with malaria. He made important contacts during that visit which ultimately led to doors being opened in Nigeria and elsewhere. It's a slow and methodical process and as myself and Philip have said in the past, the whole story will be told when the job is done and the job is not yet done. Regards, Paul
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