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Post by Alex Weidmann on Dec 22, 2013 18:37:03 GMT
I wonder, is there any chance of recovering single frame stills from the "Morcambe and Wise"? I will try and photograph the film after the holiday. It's in my garage at the moment. It's not in a happy state. I think the big problem facing Philip when he started was the fractured state of many of the archives he first visited. The only reason things survived in Nigeria was because some material hadn't been sent to central storage in Lagos in 1977, which is what should have happened to it. This meant that forgotten material lay on shelves for years. We all benefited from that in 1984 when Ian Levine got 14 films back from what used to be Midwest TV. 'The Sky at Night' was a miracle, found as I understand it at what used to be RKTV in Abuja. Not every station was as easy to get into and it took quite some time to find out what was in Jos. What was left in Lagos was destroyed. The first countries Phil visited in 2008 were Zambia, Kenya, Ethiopia and Uganda. When he came back, it was with malaria. He made important contacts during that visit which ultimately led to doors being opened in Nigeria and elsewhere. It's a slow and methodical process and as myself and Philip have said in the past, the whole story will be told when the job is done and the job is not yet done. Regards, Paul Thanks for all that info Paul. Certainly sounds like Phil has gone through quite an ordeal to search these archives! I wonder when the archive material in Lagos was purged? Would this have been in the late seventies?
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Post by Shane Anderson on Dec 22, 2013 23:15:05 GMT
I was going to ask the same question.
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Post by Paul Vanezis on Dec 22, 2013 23:17:52 GMT
I was going to ask the same question. It's a very interesting question... It's not for me though to give you the answer. It's Phil's story. He'll tell it when he's good and ready. Regards, Paul
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Post by adamjordan on Dec 22, 2013 23:18:51 GMT
Fascinating posts Paul.
Thankyou.
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Post by Paul McDermott on Dec 22, 2013 23:52:41 GMT
The first countries Phil visited in 2008 were Zambia, Kenya, Ethiopia and Uganda. When he came back, it was with malaria. I've said it before, and I'll say it again: as Watson said of Holmes, Phil is unquestionably "a benefactor of the race". If ever he visits here on the QT, I hope he realizes how many of us are deeply grateful for these extraordinary efforts he's undertaken. No doubt Paul V, you've done your bit in that vein - just as we're all glad for what you've done for us, too! If RTD can get a gong, Phil's will hopefully show up for the New Year's or Birthday Honours Lists.
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Post by Paul McDermott on Dec 22, 2013 23:56:19 GMT
It's a slow and methodical process and as myself and Philip have said in the past, the whole story will be told when the job is done and the job is not yet done. Regards, Paul It's far from being all over, then! You beauty! Take your time fellas, we'll keep a welcome in the hillsides and a light on in the window! Enjoy your break, when you take it!
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Post by John Wall on Dec 23, 2013 0:11:46 GMT
ITV had a shortlived "Raiders of the Lost Archives" but, from what I've learnt, Philip Morris is, whether he likes it or not, a real life "Indiana Jones". He's contracted malaria and been in what is, effectively, a war zone with bombs going off, etc recovering - what many of us consider - priceless cultural heritage.
However, what's really of concern is the, quite frankly, disgusting attitude of some who populate these fora. They need to take a serious look in the mirror and get a major reality check.
Philip Morris, so far, has brought us nine missing Season 5 Troughtons and two Sky at Nights
Just reflect on that before posting.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 23, 2013 1:09:10 GMT
I will try and photograph the [M&W] film after the holiday. It's in my garage at the moment. It's not in a happy state. (Finally created a new login for this site... I'm not really new here.) I've said this before elsewhere, but now we know there's at least one 'recovered' print that's turned vinegar, I hope it's worth repeating here. I have been thinking about the possibility of rescuing prints that can't physically be unwound by scanning them with the kind of 3D scanners that are also being used for medical applications; possibly a similar scanner is used for those images that turn up from time to time of paintings by famous artists that 'survive' because they were painted over later on. I realise there may be several problems, like -The difficulties of retrieving images that should look flat but are stored circular (sounds weird, but you know what I mean) - this would undoubtedly be harder than capturing a painting, which of course is on a flat surface -Every single frame would have to be reconstructed by joining together parts of scanned flat layers (that's how I presume these things work anyway - perhaps some kind of script could be written to automate this bit) -Retrieved images may need a lot of processing to make them look like television footage -Lack of time and money -...and probably a lot of other problems I can't think of because I don't have first hand knowledge of handling either film prints or 3D scanners. :-) In short, this is probably not going to happen, but it's the kind of crazy idea I felt I had to share, just in case I'm the first to think of it and it would turn out to be a useful suggestion after all. In any case, I hope the M&W print will be kept even if it's unrecoverable at this point. You never know what the future might bring... Finally, I'd like to say it's nice to have some fresh input from Paul Vanezis.
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Post by Tim Disney on Dec 23, 2013 3:33:14 GMT
Chris Perry has posted a list of some of the recoveries that were made during the production of 'The Native Hue of Resolution' over at the Kaleidoscope Facebook group. Thank you for the kind feedback received from those who were able to appreciate and recognise the amount of work involved in such a production, the rarity of the material they saw and who are able to understand the bigger picture when it comes to the recovery of all forms of lost television. Kaleidoscope uncovered some quite surprising material that was previously missing, believed wiped during the production process and while it was impossible to use it all, as much of it was used wherever possible in the final edit. For anyone who is genuinely interested in the recovery of lost television, I hope to screen some of the items on the list in full at future Kaleidoscope events over the next year or so and at least two of the rare sixties Thames VT recordings will be screened as part of the line-up of the next event on March the 1st called 'A Salute to Thames.' Details of that event will follow next year. You can read Chris' list and response to some of the feedback at the Kaleidoscope Facebook group. For those who were unable to be in London at the weekend, there may be another screening at some point in the future, however, there are currently no plans to make it available online.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 23, 2013 4:09:41 GMT
I will try and photograph the [M&W] film after the holiday. It's in my garage at the moment. It's not in a happy state. (Finally created a new login for this site... I'm not really new here.) I've said this before elsewhere, but now we know there's at least one 'recovered' print that's turned vinegar, I hope it's worth repeating here. I have been thinking about the possibility of rescuing prints that can't physically be unwound by scanning them with the kind of 3D scanners that are also being used for medical applications; possibly a similar scanner is used for those images that turn up from time to time of paintings by famous artists that 'survive' because they were painted over later on. I realise there may be several problems, like -The difficulties of retrieving images that should look flat but are stored circular (sounds weird, but you know what I mean) - this would undoubtedly be harder than capturing a painting, which of course is on a flat surface -Every single frame would have to be reconstructed by joining together parts of scanned flat layers (that's how I presume these things work anyway - perhaps some kind of script could be written to automate this bit) -Retrieved images may need a lot of processing to make them look like television footage -Lack of time and money Coincidently BBC news recently posted this article about the techniques used to recover data from burnt scrolls from Herculaneum which involves ultraviolet 3D scanning. www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-25106956I don't know what kind of data recovery techniques are available for film, but I imagine that other specialists would have encountered similar problems.
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Post by adamjordan on Dec 23, 2013 10:04:31 GMT
ITV had a shortlived "Raiders of the Lost Archives" but, from what I've learnt, Philip Morris is, whether he likes it or not, a real life "Indiana Jones". He's contracted malaria and been in what is, effectively, a war zone with bombs going off, etc recovering - what many of us consider - priceless cultural heritage. However, what's really of concern is the, quite frankly, disgusting attitude of some who populate these fora. They need to take a serious look in the mirror and get a major reality check. Philip Morris, so far, has brought us nine missing Season 5 Troughtons and two Sky at NightsJust reflect on that before posting. I appreciate your concern about some of the attitudes of posters John but I feel these sentiments would be better expressed elsewhere. The posters on this thread and on the MEF generally are usually above that kind of behaviour.
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Post by Greg H on Dec 23, 2013 12:03:18 GMT
ITV had a shortlived "Raiders of the Lost Archives" but, from what I've learnt, Philip Morris is, whether he likes it or not, a real life "Indiana Jones". He's contracted malaria and been in what is, effectively, a war zone with bombs going off, etc recovering - what many of us consider - priceless cultural heritage. However, what's really of concern is the, quite frankly, disgusting attitude of some who populate these fora. They need to take a serious look in the mirror and get a major reality check. Philip Morris, so far, has brought us nine missing Season 5 Troughtons and two Sky at NightsJust reflect on that before posting. I appreciate your concern about some of the attitudes of posters John but I feel these sentiments would be better expressed elsewhere. The posters on this thread and on the MEF generally are usually above that kind of behaviour. The regular posters for sure. There have been a few hollow vessels putting in an appearance in the last few months unfortunately. Hopefully it will all get back to normal in the not too distant future.
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Post by brianfretwell on Dec 23, 2013 12:11:08 GMT
I just remembered the real bad news from the MBW panel. Steve from the NFT said that some programmes already on digital media may at some time be at risk due to the number of head left to play them back for copying. He stated that a priority list had already been drawn up for the order in which to copy them. Also some talk of data cartridge systems failing on playback, but can't remember details, possibly from Sue Maldon. A stern warning that originals should be kept in case of more modern storage failing and the possibility of better transfers in the future. I can only quote from Film Collecting magazine (of course about film origination) "Always keep your master on film, by making a transfer to whatever Digital format comes along you have the best of both worlds. One does not replace the other, but can compliment the other" Rodney Bourke
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Post by Neil Lambess on Dec 23, 2013 12:29:02 GMT
I will try and photograph the [M&W] film after the holiday. It's in my garage at the moment. It's not in a happy state. (Finally created a new login for this site... I'm not really new here.) I've said this before elsewhere, but now we know there's at least one 'recovered' print that's turned vinegar, I hope it's worth repeating here. I have been thinking about the possibility of rescuing prints that can't physically be unwound by scanning them with the kind of 3D scanners that are also being used for medical applications; possibly a similar scanner is used for those images that turn up from time to time of paintings by famous artists that 'survive' because they were painted over later on. I realise there may be several problems, like -The difficulties of retrieving images that should look flat but are stored circular (sounds weird, but you know what I mean) - this would undoubtedly be harder than capturing a painting, which of course is on a flat surface -Every single frame would have to be reconstructed by joining together parts of scanned flat layers (that's how I presume these things work anyway - perhaps some kind of script could be written to automate this bit) -Retrieved images may need a lot of processing to make them look like television footage -Lack of time and money -...and probably a lot of other problems I can't think of because I don't have first hand knowledge of handling either film prints or 3D scanners. :-) In short, this is probably not going to happen, but it's the kind of crazy idea I felt I had to share, just in case I'm the first to think of it and it would turn out to be a useful suggestion after all. In any case, I hope the M&W print will be kept even if it's unrecoverable at this point. You never know what the future might bring... Finally, I'd like to say it's nice to have some fresh input from Paul Vanezis. the big problem with Vinegar Syndrome is that its a series of different but related problems with the print (hence "Syndome" ) the film acetate can shrink and turn very brittle , the emulsion containing most of the image lifts away , and the film can buckle badly to name a few ! Ironically the problem can be made worse by storing the film inside a film can , its luck of the draw really , ive met quite a few films suffering from it over the years , and its not a prety sight....(and it has various degrees of damage.......and success rates at saving the image ) when i did my 2 years aprenticship training as a cinema projectionist in the 80s, somebody was experimenting with dry freezing important material affected by it after cutting the reel into strips , but i dont know if that idea was a success or not
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Post by Matthew Kurth on Dec 23, 2013 16:24:47 GMT
Finally, I collected the film from them to see if a more drastic method could be used to recover anything. I too have given up on it; it's simply impossible to get anything off the film without the emulsion smearing away across the film base. Paul, thanks so much for sharing that, even if it is disappointing news. Out of curiosity, even if the film can't be restored with current techniques, is there anything that can be done to halt the decomposition process in the vague hopes that in another 5-10 years someone may discover a clever new solution?
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