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Post by stevendoig on Jan 26, 2012 20:42:58 GMT
I'm sure I'll get banned for this, but here goes.
As a long time lurker I've always really enjoyed reading the varied and informative posts on this part of the forum.
But, since the recent missing episodes were recovered, it has (in my opinion, and I would imagine many others) degenerated into a Gallifrey Base style piece of nonsense at times, with pointless inane threads and childish ill informed opinions and so on.
Just my threepence worth, sorry to bring it up, I've nothing to do with this forum, and I know its not really my place to say, but just felt I had to get it off my chest- its a shame to see such a sudden decline in a formally superb forum!
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Post by Brad Phipps on Jan 26, 2012 20:46:24 GMT
We're Doctor Who fans, so you're argument is immediately invalid. Inane threads and childish opinions is what we do best.
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Post by stevendoig on Jan 26, 2012 20:48:47 GMT
I would obviously agree with you! But check out some (most) of the older threads. Quite a difference.
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Post by Rob Moss on Jan 26, 2012 21:48:38 GMT
But, since the recent missing episodes were recovered, it has (in my opinion, and I would imagine many others) degenerated into a Gallifrey Base style piece of nonsense at times, with pointless inane threads and childish ill informed opinions and so on. I agree with every single word of this.
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Post by Brad Phipps on Jan 26, 2012 22:10:10 GMT
I can't obviously comment about past threads prior to December 2011 but it is a common notion that a missing episode discovery does bring a lot of the wishful thinkers out of the woodwork.
I personally bowed out of fandom in 2005-6, and haven't really been back proper until a few weeks ago when the two episodes were returned. Then again, I left when The Dalek Master Plan 2 had been returned and Lost in Time had been out for a few months, so from my perspective nothing around here seems to have changed!
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Post by Ronnie McDevitt on Jan 26, 2012 22:58:34 GMT
Beat you to it Steven! missingepisodes.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=who&action=display&thread=6802&page=2Re: Keep the Faith « Reply #17 on Jan 24, 2012, 10:55pm » -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Simon Ashby - `Don't understand the point of this thread.' Anthony Clark - `Utter twaddle!' Have to agree with these comments. Is it just me or has the standard of posts on this forum gone way downhill in the last couple of months? The decline can most probably be pinpointed to the recent recovery.
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Post by John Green on Jan 27, 2012 16:59:20 GMT
Well,I had a look at some of the older postings.I notice that in 2004 the moderators had to intervene because names and addresses were being posted perhaps with a view to 'liberating' some missing episodes. I've seen threads started by people who may be young,who may have problems with normal text,and who might be slightly more mono-maniacal than the rest of us.This hasn't always meant that the points they raised didn't lead to interesting discussions. I admit that I returned to this site in the recent excitement over Underwater Menace and Galaxy 4.I Googled "Doctor Who Missing Episodes" as did a lot of people.I've been quite surprised at how quickly the glee over the discoveries vanished,and the glum reality of methodical searching was stressed. I admit I'm an optimist over recoveries. This doesn't mean I 'know' all 106 will be returned,nor will wishes be enough. Mind you,when I read about the two newest finds,I thought,"when I read the episode titles it will become established that x and y exist.Until then it could be any two."Philosophers call that the Mrs.Slocombe's Cat principle,I believe,that nothing exists until the observer witnesses it.
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Post by Brad Phipps on Jan 27, 2012 21:26:51 GMT
Mind you, when I read about the two newest finds,I thought;when I read the episode titles it will become established that x and y exist. Until then it could be any two. I wish I had that experience (as I did in 2004 when I learned a missing episode had been found about an hour before learning it's identity) but in the case in December I simply read the episode titles straight from Steven Moffat's tweet.
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Post by Dave Wood on Jan 27, 2012 23:20:33 GMT
I really wouldn't worry too much Steve. The problem is that there is a very difficult balance to be set between being welcoming to the new/young/energetic types with their great new ideas, against the utterly ridiculously and the obvious spammers and scammers.
I'm not sure that the balance is always right on here and sometimes we all get suspicious when a seemingly crazy claim is made (e.g. I got a lot of abuse when I revealed many years back that there was a missing Avengers episode sitting in the UCLA archive in USA following some fan work with the fantastic Mike Long. Official records showed it was never tele-recorded in the UK and I was shot down in flames, but via Dick Fiddy and the BFI we eventually got it back to the UK nonetheless. I was looking at their archive in general for UK material and if Mike hadn't shouted about the Avengers that episode might still be missing - i.e. some Dr Who fans know all of the missing Who episodes and nothing else, I had a decent working knowledge of some BBC missing material, mostly comedy, and whilst I loved the Avengers and had/have quite a few on tape I had no idea about their own missing episode status at that time).
Sometimes the passion is because revealing the existence of material before it gets back to the true copyright holders can be dangerous (e.g it can inflate prices on ebay when suddenly everyone starts bidding on a rare single film print, albeit with the very best of intentions) and I admit that I went public too early with The Avengers, although part of that was because I was so bloody frustrated with the officious receptionist at the BFI ((who hadn't a clue who to put me through to, and after a whole sodding morning of speaking to post room staff at BFI/NFT I was getting absolutely nowhere, as the level of people I was speaking to had no understanding, passion or care about of film at all)).
Sometimes the perceived aggression on here is because fans have read and believe (almost religiously) interviews and articles that might not be 100% accurate, even if they were written 3, 4 or 5 decades ago. When I think of tele-fantasy fans I often think of the stoning scene in Monty Python's Life of Brian - I really can't think why. ;o)
My first experience of missing episode lease was when as a very young teenager when I wrote to Dr Who magazine when Nicholas Courtney was quoted in an interview as having a VHS recording of part 1 of The Invasion, albeit without any sound. I had read and loved and studied the Sue Malden interview in the 1980 Dr Who Winter Special and I knew that there were many missing episodes around that time. I got a very nice and unexpected letter back from JNT at the Dr Who production office to say that the information had been passed to the BBC archive to investigate and then another letter a few weeks later from the BBC archive to say that sadly the article had been misinterpreted and that Courtney actually had a VHS recording of existing episodes of The Invasion but with the first two surviving episodes presented in a silent format only.
Sadly, there are a couple of very peculiar individuals on here who have perpetrated many scams and cruel hoaxes in the past and they sadly keep coming back on here with new user names to try stir up more trouble, sometimes even setting up multiple handles and striking up conversations with themselves with various usernames to make it look more plausible. Quite frankly if they are found out and exposed on here they deserve absolutely everything they get, no matter how rude and unpleasant, because they waste time and energy and divert people away from proper research. Sadly I think some of them actually get a thrill out of the abuse, so it's utterly wasted on them.
It's not just on here though, as even when recoveries were common place back in the 1980s there were lots of wild rumours about recoveries that never actually happened across all the fan networks ( I reckon over the years I must have heard unfounded rumours about pretty much every missing story from Massacre Episodes at the Imperial War Musuem and The Highlanders existing if full with some Scottish collector and lots of other very silly and unsubstantiated and often since disproven stories) and even in the pages of the official Doctor Who monthly magazine there was talk of Terror of the Autons (I think) having been recovered on transmission format (it wasn't true!) from an overseas broadcaster - and then there was the major hoax of the Tenth Planet 4 recovery (they even got Michael Craze to record an introduction to a rush-release video) even though the video returned to the BBC turned out to be blank.
Part of the issue on here is when a lead investigated 20+ years ago and found to be false is suddenly resurrected as absolute fact. You can understand the frustration of the guys at the coal face when they have to reject a rumour for the tenth time when some less informed individuals keep shouting that it has be true and that the BBC are covering facts etc.
I don't think anyone on here is purposefully mean, but after 30+ years of rumours, lies, hoaxes and disappointments and after decades of research by great guys such as Levine, Vanesis, Motangue and Bignell (and many others) we are all a little more cynical than perhaps is truly healthy.
Lte's just hope for a few more unexpected pleasant surprises in the coming months and years.
This is an absolutely fantastic site where genuine knowledge can be shared about all missing TV but there are a few oddballs who completely abuse it.
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Post by David Cann on Jan 28, 2012 20:33:12 GMT
I think you've said it all there, Dave. While having to shoot down suggestions (such as 'has (insert country name here) been checked?') that to many of us may seem obvious can be very frustrating at times, we must also remember that these posters are usually just trying to help and do their bit, and that it is this sort of 'go-for-it' attitude that could be vital in ensuring that, if any missing material is still out there, it has the best chance of returning safely to the archives in the future. Occasionally we are taunted by hoaxers, etc who will needlessly and cruelly abuse this fantastic forum, and thanks to lessons from the past, we have learned to be wary of such hoaxes and rumours. However, sometimes we must remind ourselves that most of the time, posters of such instances are genuinly trying their best to be helpful and involved, and though this can come across as annoying or ignorant sometimes, they have the best of intentions. If we don't like it, then we've just got to grit our teeth and bear it. I know that all of this may sound a little presumptious, as I only signed up to the forum this month myself! But, as with many new users, I was finally given the push I needed after lurking for a while to sign up after the recovery of the recent two episodes, and no doubt others who are perhaps new to the field of television recovery & research also did the same. As a result of the fact that they are new, such comments may be made that some veterans of the topic will be frustrated by, and this is perfectly understandable. But remember that, some 30 years ago, most of those now considered experts probably made the same mistakes We all must start somewhere. Peace and goodwill to all men (and women) on Earth! OK, so Christmas is over, but the gist of the message is the same
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Post by Jon Preddle on Jan 28, 2012 21:03:02 GMT
Occasionally we are taunted by hoaxers, etc who will needlessly and cruelly abuse this fantastic forum, and thanks to lessons from the past, we have learned to be wary of such hoaxes and rumours. I've always felt that for any forum to succeed, and specifically to aid in filtering out abuse, is to impose stronger forum rules: one of the rules here is No Handles, and yet, some posters still don't give full names. If it was up to me, the first rule would be that every user had to have in their profile: - full first and surname - year of birth - country of residence The age of poster would give one an idea of their maturity, likely level of knowledge about and understanding of the series' long history (especially that of pre-2003), and the country of residence would also enable one to appreciate at which point in the show's history they'd have been introduced to it (e.g. USA mostly from 1978 onwards).
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Post by David Cann on Jan 28, 2012 21:31:05 GMT
I appreciate your point Jon, but then again - hoaxers, abusers (is that even a word..?) and similar could quite easily fill in those required fields with false information and we'd be none the wiser. I think that people have a right to retain some privacy as far as some personal deatils go, and a person's year of birth does not neccesarily always reflect their maturity or level of knowledge concerning a topic. I have met some extremely immature adults and some teens who have knowledge and understanding of a topic well beyond that which would normally be expected - just because you're young (or old) it doesn't mean that you don't (or do) understand/appreciate the history of a show such as Doctor Who. However, I understand that generally, this would help us get a rough idea of how a poster is likely to behave. Admins are able to view a poster's age, and they are the ones who regulate the forum, so I suppose that as far as age is concerned, the system we use is perfectly OK. As far as the name thing goes, I was unaware that 'No Handles' also meant that you had to give your surname - could someone clarify is that is the case? If so then I will add mine to my name. Sorry! Yeah, having a person's real name and not an internet pseudonym or username would definitely enforce the filtration of abuse and misuse from the site. With the countries, again, I generally agree, but if that was the case we must remember that a person's country of residence does not neccesarily determine the amount of knowledge they are likely to have on a topic - especially if they have immigrated/emmigrated at some point!
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Post by George D on Jan 29, 2012 1:48:45 GMT
Maybe we should start sending our drivers license, birth certificates and 3 forms of id to get onto the forum.. Paul definately needs to be spending his days inspecting these items and making sure they get sent back to us safely. (just kidding)
PS. Im in agreement to david If they want to check id for security reasons, it doesnt have to be all over the net.
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Post by John F Brayshaw on Jan 29, 2012 2:20:04 GMT
First of all we should take into consideration this is Paul's space and there are a lot of wiley charactors who get on here and rile everyone's hopes up (i.e. Web of Fear). We all have to take a step back and stop getting at one another.
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Post by George D on Jan 29, 2012 3:45:41 GMT
I agree that we have to be respectful of Paul,honor his wishes, and show respect for one another. While my comment was meant in the spirit of bringing some levity to the situation, in NJ USA when one gets a drivers license, they do require one to have multiple forms of id (which could include a former drivers licence, original birth certificate, some bills, etc.) A link is enclosed below, which might give some a chuckle. Unless your in NJ and then you're scrambling for everything www.state.nj.us/mvc/Licenses/6PointID.htmI understand that Paul wants to protect us from false rumors and unsubstanciated finds. Trade off comes between knowing about the false rumors or not knowing about rumors such as Sierra Leone where perhaps we could have been of assistance in preventing the loss there from occuring. I also agree that if somone is attempting recovery that perhaps the less knowing about it the better also. My opinion is to investigate everything without getting one's hopes up.
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