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Post by Rob Moss on Jan 29, 2012 11:34:50 GMT
Trade off comes between knowing about the false rumors or not knowing about rumors such as Sierra Leone where perhaps we could have been of assistance in preventing the loss there from occuring. How could we have prevented Sierra Leone..? As I understand it, the information which indicated the episodes were there wasn't made available until after the war had started and the episodes had been destroyed. Happy to be corrected on any of this, but I can't see how we could have been of any assistance at all in this.
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Post by David Cann on Jan 29, 2012 18:34:03 GMT
I don't think that George was referring to Sierra Leone as a direct example, Rob - just a situation that is fresh in everyone's minds that can be related to. It is, as you say, very unlikely that the loss in Sierra Leone could have been prevented but the point I think George was trying to make was that if (and I mean 'if'!) someone had had information (even if very unreliable and scratchy) on Sierra Leone before the war and had come onto this forum (which would not have been possible as the forum had not yet been set up before then - the interent was barely off of the ground, I think!), then they may have been worried that they could be shot down or accused of spreading rumours if they posted the info.
The basic point is that we need to strike a balance between being cautious and being over-cynical - not that we neccesarily are over-cynical, but I think that Sierra Leone was being used as a hypothetical example to show this, not a real one.
Perhaps a more appropriate equivalent would be the suggestion that there might be Ice Warriors viewing prints in Germany. If Maurice hadn't come forward to make the suggestion, then it may well have passed under the radar unchecked and, in the unlikely instance that prints are found there, their recovery would be down to the posting of a lead that could also have been classed as a potential 'rumour' on these forums.
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Post by John Wall on Jan 29, 2012 18:44:05 GMT
Maurice was given a bit of a grilling that I thought was uncalled for. He was reporting something he'd read and provided a link to it, he wasn't saying that he'd seen a pile of film cans with "The Ice Warriors" on them.
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Post by cjones on Jan 29, 2012 18:57:27 GMT
What he said. To revisit reply #9 of this thread, I think a great many people - including myself - have been put off by the frankly vitriolic criticisms levelled at some new posters on this forum. While some suggestions by new posters may be naive (checking obvious places/persons), barmy (suggesting sending space probes into space to receive old transmissions), or just pointless (expressing faith/certainty that more episodes may be found), we all have a common goal: to recover and safeguard this most important part of sci-fi heritage. As a long-time lurker but first-time poster, I hope I am not out of order by suggesting that we all post with that thought in mind.
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Post by John Green on Jan 29, 2012 19:04:34 GMT
In theory,it would help if everyone knew about everything that had been tried,but that's a big ask,as the saying goes.Though luckily there's a book. It's as well to remember that a lot of recent posters weren't born when the news first broke about the lacunae were first identified in 1981,so that can't refer to their own memories with "That rings a bell.I'm sure that's been tried before".They can easily end up advising their father's mother on how to ingest protein.
Does anyone else keep getting an Everly Brothers' tune running through their head when they see the title of this thread?
The Everly Brothers were a popular singing duo of the 'Rock and Roll' years,whose close harmonies...
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Post by George D on Jan 29, 2012 19:35:20 GMT
Like David said, Sierra Leone was merely an example. The point I was trying to make was that, someone posted as a response to a forum went to a legitimate lead, although several years too late. While the forum comment was definately too late, it was an example that those random comments about film locations can lead to film recoveries.
Could it have been prevented and could forum comments have had an effect? I have no idea. I have no idea when we learned that Sierra had aired the series or had an archive.
I do like Pauls idea of an organized approach. Coming from a sales background my thoughts of an organized approach includes contacting archives and collectors. building relationships, and ASKING who they might know who has more information.If that was done with african stations when contacted and spoke to the right person, perhaps we could have been referred into the Sierra Leone archive earlier?
Too often we ask an archive.. check them off the list.. then something surfaces (like hong kong). How many times do we remember a phone call from 10 years ago, yet if the person checks in once a year when that film can shows up we'll remember it was wanted. I also think there are people here who will put man hours into recovery, if taught how to do it better. Why throw them away? The more looking the better.
As far as Sierra Leone is concerned. I dont know know all the details. As to if they had one print or a signficant number of prints. A recent video showed a print that was saved from a garbage dump after many years. so i dont know the details why we're not persuing an archeolgical effort. Unless they have something up their sleeve, i dont know about it makes sense to look where we know the prints are. Im sure there are a lot of seirra leonians who wouldnt mind a couple bucks to help with a dig.
HOwever, these are just some thoughts with my limited knowledge. Others perhaps have more info and know if this makes sense or not.
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Post by John Andersen on Jan 29, 2012 19:39:45 GMT
How could we have prevented Sierra Leone..? As I understand it, the information which indicated the episodes were there wasn't made available until after the war had started and the episodes had been destroyed. Happy to be corrected on any of this, but I can't see how we could have been of any assistance at all in this. The circumstances that the episodes were not found sooner is strange to say the least. I remember reading in Doctor Who magazine that the BBC was in the process of contacting every TV station they sold Doctor Who to in the past in an attempt to find the missing episodes. This was being done after they already found episodes 1-3 of The Reign of Terror in about 1985. Unfortunately, that was all the positive news we received from overseas television stations until The Tomb of the Cybermen was returned in 1991. Unless I am mistaken, didn't the BBC also contact those same overseas stations when the film and videotape library was formed in 1978, and again after Tomb was recovered in 1991 when they saw how many people bought copies of that story on video? From the information we have right now, it looks like Sierra Leone was contacted at least once, possibly multiple times to see if they had missing episodes, and the inventory records they had available were most likely screwed up to the point of where they had 117 Hartnell episodes and the first Jon Pertwee season sitting on their shelves and they didn't know it. Anybody contacting them after that would have probably gotten the same reply. There is not a whole lot more that can be done if they said "I'm sorry, Sir, but we do not have those episodes here."
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Post by Giles Sparrow on Jan 29, 2012 22:25:18 GMT
How could we have prevented Sierra Leone..? As I understand it, the information which indicated the episodes were there wasn't made available until after the war had started and the episodes had been destroyed. Happy to be corrected on any of this, but I can't see how we could have been of any assistance at all in this. The circumstances that the episodes were not found sooner is strange to say the least. I remember reading in Doctor Who magazine that the BBC was in the process of contacting every TV station they sold Doctor Who to in the past in an attempt to find the missing episodes. This was being done after they already found episodes 1-3 of The Reign of Terror in about 1985. Unfortunately, that was all the positive news we received from overseas television stations until The Tomb of the Cybermen was returned in 1991. Unless I am mistaken, didn't the BBC also contact those same overseas stations when the film and videotape library was formed in 1978, and again after Tomb was recovered in 1991 when they saw how many people bought copies of that story on video? From the information we have right now, it looks like Sierra Leone was contacted at least once, possibly multiple times to see if they had missing episodes, and the inventory records they had available were most likely screwed up to the point of where they had 117 Hartnell episodes and the first Jon Pertwee season sitting on their shelves and they didn't know it. Anybody contacting them after that would have probably gotten the same reply. There is not a whole lot more that can be done if they said "I'm sorry, Sir, but we do not have those episodes here." I'm sure the full story will come out eventually, but this is what puzzles me too - complicated by the fact that some kind of papertrail has now presumably come to light to convince Paul that at least some material actually was there...
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Post by John Andersen on Jan 29, 2012 22:46:38 GMT
I'm sure the full story will come out eventually, but this is what puzzles me too - complicated by the fact that some kind of papertrail has now presumably come to light to convince Paul that at least some material actually was there... There is also the possibility that the TV station was contacted by the BBC, but the episodes had already been shipped on to another location, which would have been the archive. The TV station's records might have only showed that the prints were no longer with them, but it didn't indicate exactly where they were sent to. During their search for episodes in Africa, Paul and his team could have come across paperwork that gave strong indications of what was in the archive when it was destroyed. I'm sure that if Paul or any other BBC employee had known that the prints were shipped to an archive in Sierra Leone, he would have swam to France and walked the rest of the way to Africa to recover them if he had to.
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Post by John Wall on Jan 29, 2012 23:03:45 GMT
It's a very long walk from France to Africa - right through eastern Europe and the Levant. I'd be more inclined to walk from France through Spain to Gibraltar and swim across to Africa
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Post by John F Brayshaw on Jan 30, 2012 0:06:52 GMT
We just got keep hoping and some thing should show up but it takes time and I think Paul knows when something really is bunk and not legit.
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Post by dennywilson on Feb 4, 2012 16:59:17 GMT
I'm sure the full story will come out eventually, but this is what puzzles me too - complicated by the fact that some kind of papertrail has now presumably come to light to convince Paul that at least some material actually was there... Wait, it's actually known WHAT they had??!!!!
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Post by Richard Bignell on Feb 4, 2012 17:16:51 GMT
The sales to Sierra Leone are all listed in Wiped!
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Post by Brad Phipps on Feb 5, 2012 8:05:40 GMT
I'm sure the full story will come out eventually, but this is what puzzles me too - complicated by the fact that some kind of papertrail has now presumably come to light to convince Paul that at least some material actually was there... Wait, it's actually known WHAT they had??!!!! Yup, everything in the Hartnell era with the exception of Mission to the Unknown and The Daleks Master Plan.
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Post by dennywilson on Feb 5, 2012 8:20:47 GMT
The sales to Sierra Leone are all listed in Wiped! I meant what they MIGHT have actually been STILL holding of episodes broadcast - a paper trail of what prints were bicycled from Sierra Leone to another broadcaster (even halfway around the world) or what might not have left the country - either held or destroyed at the end of the contract. Doesn't matter what they aired, but what was left behind there in the chain. Are there records that have been recovered that show without a doubt they held missing DOCTOR WHO episodes until the 1990's? Just saying there was an archive/film-store in the country that MIGHT have held television programs from the BBC dating back to the 1960's that was destroyed in the Civil War is a bit different than saying (You) have found records that show they held a number of DOCTOR WHO episodes on 16mm,including missing episodes. We could be getting all bent out of shape for episodes that weren't kept in the country, or destroyed years before it is believed they were. Take the Cypress situation - they knew what they held and what happened to the other episodes they didn't hold. Since they never aired Reign of Terror - can we guess they were supposed to pass on their prints to another country at some point? Would new Zealand have been the same way with The Crusades? Not aired but still held? Were they supposed to return it to BBC Sydney? This goes back also to Nigeria and the four Season 6 Troughton stories they aired in 1974 - they were the "last stop" for The Abominable Snowmen, The Enemy of the World, The Web of Fear and The Wheel in Space, and apparently the recent search has confirmed they were no longer there,with the apparent search of Africa completed.
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