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Post by johnstewart on Mar 22, 2010 19:00:10 GMT
I suspect, although not having seen it, that the reason Evil "dips" is that we're just not used to stories that long nowadays. Personally, I don't think it's so much the length making it dip, but padding drawing things out a bit too far. I don't know for sure, but I feel this is a four parter that's been stretched to cover the scheduled slots. Alan, I can understand your fear as that Dalek appears at the end of episode 1 of Evil. I remember as a kid getting very jumpy in the early seventies when the week was drawing to a close and the inevitable Dr Who trailers would start appearing out of the blue in regular BBC programming. I was absolutely terrified of that theme tune which invariably was the first thing to be heard in the Pertwee trailers (from memory). I seem to remember one where he was outdoors stood near Bessie and some sort of wobbly coloured mass was manifesting itself near the front wheel of the car. To my overactive imagination that was a Dalek trying to appear. I don't think Pertwee was a particularly comforting doctor at all. I found him as scary as the Daleks with all that face contorting and drama! ------- Edit ------ I just want to add that I love the scary feel that episode two of The Abominable Snowmen manages to evoke. I think some of it might be down to the grubby quality of the film recording, but there are some lovely moments of evocative and theatrical drama in the Troughton seasons. Barry Letts revived the dressing up comedy of 'Spearhead' to pad out the 6 parter GREEN DEATH. They went through a relatively short period of doing 4 parters in the 60s probably only as 6 parters were cost effective.
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Post by johnstewart on Mar 24, 2010 21:06:25 GMT
It's really strange how certain missing stories seem to gain or lose more credibility over the years. Back in the eighties the ones that people most wanted to see again were the two Troughton dalek stories, Tomb of the Cybermen and Web of Fear. It was as if nothing else was ever made, though I wouldn't particularly disagree with those being the key missing Troughton stories. Others like Fury From the Deep seemed just a distant forgotten memory until the discovery of that short (and very excellent) clip some years ago. It's modern reputation seems only to be based on this short sequence though as the amount of people that remember it first hand must be limited. I can remember seeing some of the Troughton stories but not others, for some reason. Probably down to the fickleness of kids and my attention being diverted by some other fad at the time! The point I am making though is that the missing stories can't all have been classics (I would not expect The Highlanders, Underwater Menace, Enemy of the World or even The Moonbase to be that special for instance, if they suddenly turned up complete). That is too much to expect and I am sure that the reputations of those ones such as Evil, Web and Tomb is based on something real. The surviving episodes do seem to bear out the theory and, for me, Tomb also lives up to it's reputation. Although I know many people were let down by it when it reappeared in the flesh, I was not one of them. A bit o/t, I know! Dave Possibly 'Web' and the other gained top ratings in a magazine poll. I thought the two top list stories for ages were 'Tomb' and 'Evil of the Daleks'. I do recall both and tend to hold the latter as the best Troughton story; it was very well written, designed and acted. There was a wider list quoted though where I'm sure these were the 'best' Troughton stories as viewed then. POWER OF THE DALEKS; MACRA TERROR; EVIL OF THE DALEKS; TOMB; ABOMINABLE SNOWMEN; ICE WARRIORS; WEB OF FEAR; WHEEL IN SPACE; FURY FROM THE DEEP; MIND ROBBER; SEEDS OF DEATH; INVASION. people ten to regard 'Power' as classic as it was the first one. I think the first; last episodes conveyer sequence were classic moments. However; Troughtons Doctor was a bit of a creepy persona in that story with the silly Leprechaun Hat. there were one or two moments but the humour was bizarre. He later became very loveable. MOONBASE was actually the story where they first got the balance of humour and science in that Doctor right. Having heard the sound and recalling the story from the time I think that ones actually a good quality; pacey and well done Troughton WHO. It was effectively creepy and the first glimpse of the new shining Cybermen design. I think the sideline story 'Faceless ones' due to its underplaying is underated. I tend to agree with much of what you say though, but the longer list is probably more realistic in terms of what were the most interesting ones generally.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 26, 2010 16:46:07 GMT
I don't tend to see it as a problem that stories were longer back then. It's only seems to be an issue for modern audiences with no attention span! On the contrary, it seemed to work to a stories' advantage and gave breathing space to plot and characterisation for them to develop over a number of weeks, more like as things occur in real life and real time.
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Post by Alan Turrell on Mar 26, 2010 21:21:01 GMT
I totally agree with you Laurence to me everything about Dr who stories today seems very rushed through and you don't really seem to really get to know the characters properly. Unlike when you had 4 or 6 episode stories i felt that you really got into the stories more unlike now it seems its all over with in no time and forgotten .
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Post by johnstewart on Mar 30, 2010 23:55:40 GMT
I don't tend to see it as a problem that stories were longer back then. It's only seems to be an issue for modern audiences with no attention span! On the contrary, it seemed to work to a stories' advantage and gave breathing space to plot and characterisation for them to develop over a number of weeks, more like as things occur in real life and real time. Well no but I would guess I'm assessing missing stories by the impressions of a child viewer; which is all I have largely! It is true to say obviously a child has less attention span and ironic that many of the subtleties lost on us would reach adults if these stories were available. I was considered a reasonably bright boy so alls not lost on some memories. But some fears are confirmed by existing material from 'Enemy of the World' and 'Space Pirates' episode 1 as examples. The former was really a necessity to pay for the expensive Monster serials rather than a serious attempt to do a Thriller. I'd assess it as more of a standard 'double story' series entry. There was a good bit where Victoria screams as she has never seen a Hovercraft and thinks it's a Monster. But both serials had long winded dull first episodes. When I bored of a 'Who' I would switch off and turn on for part of a second episode. If I then got bored I'd sit part way in; then leave it a week or two before I watched again. So I did get an overview. The climax of 'Enemy' quite exciting as you had Salamander and the Doctor in the same room. If I'm correct they had swapped clothes so the Doctor was in Salamanders overalls. At the end he got sucked out ofthe TARDIS door into Space. You see the follow on in WEB OF FEAR. But with 'PIRATES' and 'WAR GAMES' they were only expanded due to other extra stories falling through. So they had to be padded. A good example of a dull and padded episode is hearing the soundtrack of HIGHLANDERS ep 1. It just verified to me that the episode was the dullest of the 60s output and that was a 4 parter. So yes we can reassess - if available - the impressions. I personally think most are better on a second viewing; but that some stories were not constructed to fill their onscreen time. INVASION filled its episodes well even as a long 8 parter.
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Post by johnstewart on Mar 30, 2010 23:58:25 GMT
It's really strange how certain missing stories seem to gain or lose more credibility over the years. Back in the eighties the ones that people most wanted to see again were the two Troughton dalek stories, Tomb of the Cybermen and Web of Fear. It was as if nothing else was ever made, though I wouldn't particularly disagree with those being the key missing Troughton stories. Others like Fury From the Deep seemed just a distant forgotten memory until the discovery of that short (and very excellent) clip some years ago. It's modern reputation seems only to be based on this short sequence though as the amount of people that remember it first hand must be limited. I can remember seeing some of the Troughton stories but not others, for some reason. Probably down to the fickleness of kids and my attention being diverted by some other fad at the time! The point I am making though is that the missing stories can't all have been classics (I would not expect The Highlanders, Underwater Menace, Enemy of the World or even The Moonbase to be that special for instance, if they suddenly turned up complete). That is too much to expect and I am sure that the reputations of those ones such as Evil, Web and Tomb is based on something real. The surviving episodes do seem to bear out the theory and, for me, Tomb also lives up to it's reputation. Although I know many people were let down by it when it reappeared in the flesh, I was not one of them. A bit o/t, I know! Dave Possibly 'Web' and the other gained top ratings in a magazine poll. I thought the two top list stories for ages were 'Tomb' and 'Evil of the Daleks'. I do recall both and tend to hold the latter as the best Troughton story; it was very well written, designed and acted. There was a wider list quoted though where I'm sure these were the 'best' Troughton stories as viewed then. POWER OF THE DALEKS; MACRA TERROR; EVIL OF THE DALEKS; TOMB; ABOMINABLE SNOWMEN; ICE WARRIORS; WEB OF FEAR; WHEEL IN SPACE; FURY FROM THE DEEP; MIND ROBBER; SEEDS OF DEATH; INVASION. people ten to regard 'Power' as classic as it was the first one. I think the first; last episodes conveyer sequence were classic moments. However; Troughtons Doctor was a bit of a creepy persona in that story with the silly Leprechaun Hat. there were one or two moments but the humour was bizarre. He later became very loveable. MOONBASE was actually the story where they first got the balance of humour and science in that Doctor right. Having heard the sound and recalling the story from the time I think that ones actually a good quality; pacey and well done Troughton WHO. It was effectively creepy and the first glimpse of the new shining Cybermen design. I think the sideline story 'Faceless ones' due to its underplaying is underated. I tend to agree with much of what you say though, but the longer list is probably more realistic in terms of what were the most interesting ones generally. Just to add that's not to say I agree with you Dave about FURY. If it had been down to me to assess I would have placed that story and WEB OF FEAR as the most important from 1968 to be saved. They were both big stories and well done. INVASION and MIND ROBBER are also impressive stories; but I would have probably prioritised the former two. Sorry Dave I had to modify this - I meant to say I DO agree with you FURY is important; unless someone tampered with my post and changed what I said. I thought I said that originally...?
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Post by johnstewart on Mar 31, 2010 0:07:38 GMT
Such depressing reading,also that Galaxy 4 existed till 1977! As was mentioned in the Missing Years Documentary by Frazer Hines and Deborah Watling.Realy like this Documentary as well,very good edits as well as use of existing archival footage. Cheers,Lance. Those prints though were under charge of enterprises. At that stage the BBC had feedback from anniversary repeat specials (c 76); that the public were very interested in Archive stuff. This and I think the Lord Annan recommendations (is that name right)?; were what led to wipings ending generally. WQhen seeking 'DR WHO', Ian Levene with the BBCs John Bridger had received information that Enterprises might hold material the Library did not have. Unfortunately at that time no one at Enterprises was aware of a brief that they held unique material that might be wanted by the Library for preservation. When Ian arrived there GALAXY FOUR and TIME MEDDLER sales prints had just been deaccessioned and junked. Ian was able to prevent the imminent destruction of the prints and negatives for THE DALEKS. So all wasn't lost. I would feel in a worse position if the original Dalek story had been junked and a side line story like 'Galaxy' survived. That's not to say it has no merit but the latter was not a really Classic adventure.
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Post by johnstewart on Mar 31, 2010 0:14:55 GMT
It's sod's law that the one Troughton season that survives almost complete is six, which has it's good points (Mind Robber and War Games, namely, although the others are enjoyable enough too) but not a patch on what I remember season five to be. Four had it's highs and lows. Also count me as one of those that have never attended a DW convention (barring the one-off '83 Longleat event) or belonged to the fan club or anything, Tim. That's even though DW is one of my favourite shows of all (particularly for the Troughton / Pertwee eras though). I wouldn't cry at all if no more Hartnell episodes were ever uncovered as there is a pretty good cross section of his best and key stories. My interest archivally is based on filling up the Troughton shelves a bit more, to represent his era a bit more fully. I largely agree; but don't forget - TENTH PLANET 4. We have a peephole view of it but it was a key 'WHO' episode. And the telesnaps restoration suggest it was the most interesting of that stories episodes. I think also it would be nice to see CELESTIAL TOYROOM and THE CRUSADE complete; of the missing ones. I don't hold 'Masterplan' in the higher regard I once did; there perhaps the last epsiode winding it up would be nice. But oddly a clear memory is the closing scene of THE MASSACRE. I had just started school and it had a scene in modern England where a child is knocked down by a Car. The new Assistant to be Dodo tries to make an emergency phone call but finds the TARDIS interior when she goes inside. Apart from it being set in 'a street like ours' can't see why I would recall it so well. That last season (Hartnell) was very erratic. I can see now much was designed in the 'Star Trek' vein; implication rather than Monsters. And might stand up now. But the second series seemed far more dynamic.
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Post by johnstewart on Apr 2, 2010 15:58:03 GMT
You are all barking up the wrong tree if you think huge rows of cans still exist uncatalogued. I can't speak for anyone else Chris, but I said 'A few odd items I expect to turn up within the BBC on and off in future but not piles of them' so I hardly think anyone here is suggesting there are huge rows of cans uncatalogued. If you look back at the postings by Lance, Greg and the others too, none of us have said that! Where there is a human element to anything in life though, I find there is room also for human error. So I stand by what I believe, which is that there are still a few items that remain undetected within the BBC and may or may not come to light in time. This does not happen very often but as examples by Lance above prove, things do get discovered in unexpected corners. The regional outposts may hold a few more (I emphasise few) gems as well. There is also the relevant point of Andrew Martin's comment that the Bob Pratt material is not fully catalogued as yet (or at least wasn't not so long ago). The Out of the Unknown footage found in the BBC Scotland engineering division also proves my point that things do get forgotten about in other sections of the BBC (not in the actual archive itself), which is precisely what I was talking about. These instances prove to me that everything is not fully documented within the BBC as yet. Dave Perhaps slightly OT; but I'm still curious though as to why 2 'DR WHO' episodes transmitted from 35mm are missing at all. I say this as the BBCs policy appeared to be to hold 35mm prints made for transmission; presumably for cost reasons. These were 'Power of the Daleks' ep 6 and 'Wheel in Space' ep 5. The BBC seemed to hold all the others made in that format and yet these 2 are missing.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 3, 2010 8:49:21 GMT
Maybe someone took them home? Always a possibility that they're out there somewhere.
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Post by johnstewart on Apr 4, 2010 18:58:46 GMT
Maybe someone took them home? Always a possibility that they're out there somewhere. This is what I was thinking - as I say by rule of thumb they should be there; I don't know of a junking policy on 35mm transmission prints. On your other point Laurence on long stories - It's true to say really I may be confusing the issue of dull stories with long stories. I did recall from the time HIGHLANDERS episode 1 being really padded but for a 4 part story! So too the Guerilla attack in DAY OF THE DALEKS. With SPACE PIRATES that was a bit dull anyway; but both this and WAR GAMES were extended from their original length due to stories falling through; and often the padding does show. I definitely found WAR GAMES far more watchable than in '69 but in those days; I would switch off anyway half way through the second episode of a dull story. So perhaps I missed some of the better bits.
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Post by John Wall on Apr 4, 2010 21:51:22 GMT
I find War Games quite watchable too and I lurve the music that's used throughout.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 5, 2010 9:34:32 GMT
On your other point Laurence on long stories - It's true to say really I may be confusing the issue of dull stories with long stories. I did recall from the time HIGHLANDERS episode 1 being really padded but for a 4 part story! So too the Guerilla attack in DAY OF THE DALEKS. With SPACE PIRATES that was a bit dull anyway; but both this and WAR GAMES were extended from their original length due to stories falling through; and often the padding does show. I definitely found WAR GAMES far more watchable than in '69 but in those days; I would switch off anyway half way through the second episode of a dull story. So perhaps I missed some of the better bits. Yes, there's certainly a difference between long stories and dull stories. Space Pirates is an example of the latter, as you say! Not every longer story is great just because it's long but an unexpected bonus of them is that they give more time for character development. Of course, longer stories were only created for economic reasons, as we all know, but when they did a good job on them, this was hidden very well and you wouldn't be aware of that fact (e.g. War Games, Invasion, Weng Chiang). I definitely think modern Who stories, with their breakneck pace and relentlessly furious pitch, could learn a lot about pace and genuine dramatic tension from the older character-based stories (e.g. Silurians, Inferno). I was watching the first Matt Smith story on Saturday and while I thought Smith made for a very promising doctor indeed, found that the breathless production style rendered the show almost unwatchable (even the music is plastered on with no discretion). There were not enough reflective moments to stop and ponder, which are what make the truly dramatic moments so by comparison; there was little chance for the audience to find a way in to the drama or even THINK about what was happening on screen in front of them! What is killing most modern TV drama is the paranoid fear by the powers that be that audiences may contemplate switching to another channel. So everything has to be full tilt all the time.
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Post by adriane17 on Apr 5, 2010 11:20:54 GMT
We are in danger of straying off topic but I totally agree with Laurence - modern Who is a very hard watch for those of us who grew up with the original series. 45 (or rather 43) minutes is hardly enough to allow for easy storytelling given the concepts of the show. The only two successful stand alone episodes for me have been "Dalek" and "Blink" - none of the longer Xmas stories or Saturday's opener had particularly good scripts. Although most of the two parters haven't been much cop (and The End Of Time was just AWFUL) I put that down to RTD (Human Nature/Family Of Blood was excellent) and I'm hoping that Moffat pulls a rabbit out of the hat - the two leads seem well cast at least.
My sister is no real Who fan and whilst she thought Smith was good she thought the thing was "rather frenzied" to make much sense. Exactly...
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Post by Deleted on Apr 5, 2010 13:44:32 GMT
"Dalek" and "Blink" are probably my two favourite new Who stories as well, Adrian ("Father's Day" being the other one that works well in that time). Concise, well-structured stories that have their quiet moments as well but tell the tale well within the 45 mins slot. Frenzied pace is how i'd describe new Who as well; I don't subscribe to the idea either that "modern audiences demand more pace / can absorb ideas faster than the - by implication - dumb viewers of the past" etc. We are being sold short by the way modern drama seems to be made by default: unsubtle, over-complex / too many gratuitous sub-plots that add nothing to the whole, no sense of beginning / middle / end, no pause for breath, no time to engage the viewer with any of the complex concepts hinted at and no time for them to reflect and consider the implications for the characters in the story. In effect: no real sense of drama or of anything being at stake. The frenzied pace keeps the audience out and removes any possibility of them being involved in the action / events. I can't imagine, ultimately, how programme makers think such an approach is better. As for whoever scores the music and makes the decisions about how much of it to include and where: sack them on the spot. Less is more. I don't mind a bit of o/t discussion myself either if it's interesting and considered and isn't just revisiting old chestnuts!
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