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Post by Tim Disney on Mar 13, 2010 21:16:57 GMT
The Macra Terror & Fury From The Deep existed on VT masters until March-Aug 1974 when Enterprises consigned them to the category of "No Further Interest." Fury had survived a big 1969 purge as someone in the BBC Drama department had a retention notice on episodes 1 & 2. Fury and Macra's original contracts had expired in 1974. They were unavailable for repeat as their Equity agreement had expired and any further international sales would require a negotiated contract extension with the authors involved. March-Aug 1974 saw the demise of the last four Dr Who stories that still existed as VT masters. All had been wiped up to this point with the exception of Troughton's Fury and Macra and Hartnell's The War Machines and Mission to the Unknown. It's thought that Mission might never have made it to a film recording as it wasn't available for export. In the period between 1974 and 78 Enterprises were clearing out their film prints and the holdings in the BBC Film library were sparse and in terms of Troughton episodes, just a few random episodes existed from various stories on film.
The holdings in the BBC F&VTL were as John says 35mm prints:
From season six: 3x Dominators 5x Mind Robber 1x Krotons 5x Seeds of Death 2x Space Pirates
Please do check out the book mentioned earlier. It's got a heavenly amount of information for anyone interested in the wiping and junking process.
P.S, I don't know what I was thinking earlier when I said that The Myth Makers existed on VT until 1974. The first episode of that was wiped in 1969 with the other three having already been wiped in 1967. Also of interest to Troughton fans, The Highlanders VT masters were wiped in February 1967, just two months after transmission.
I stand to be corrected on all the above. I'm not at all well versed in Dr Who, but these are details from memory after reading up on it recently.
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Post by davemachin on Mar 14, 2010 13:20:52 GMT
Thank you for giving us those facts, Tim. I am a great fan of Troughton and if no other Hartnell episodes or stories turn up, I won't worry too much as there are plenty of examples of his run existing including many of his classics. Troughton is another deal altogether though and I just wish a few more of his stories turned up to represent the era properly. That's all I wish for with missing Doctor Who really.
Dave
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Post by gileshill on Mar 16, 2010 12:32:30 GMT
The BBC didn't keep most of the complete Troughtons that exist; they kept only two of them. Three later came back from the BFI, and later Tomb from Hong Kong. Just out of interest what were the 2? Always had the impression what was left was mainly those transmitted from 35mm B+W T/Rs. Seeds Of Death and Mind Robber survived at BBC Enterprises on 16mm with the Hartnell films made for overseas sales. Apparently there are also two sets of negatives for The Krotons at the BFI and BBC so maybe that survived at Enterprises too. The odd thing is that the surviving Hartnells had been withdrawn from sale by 1974 but still survived in 1978 when stories still for sale in 1974 had been destroyed by that time. Why keep the film negatives only for the stories where rights had expired years before?
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Post by davemachin on Mar 16, 2010 14:09:13 GMT
I think I read that all the negs and prints for Krotons, Dominators and War Games were given to the B.F.I. when they were no longer needed and they subsequently gave the B.B.C. back prints of all those stories later in the eighties but kept the negs themselves. The copies given back to the B.B.C. were only poor dupe copies though, which is why the much higher quality B.F.I. negs had to be accessed for the recent War Games dvd). I find the subject of the missing Troughtons to be very interesting.
Dave
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Post by johnstewart on Mar 16, 2010 21:25:41 GMT
Just out of interest what were the 2? Always had the impression what was left was mainly those transmitted from 35mm B+W T/Rs. Seeds Of Death and Mind Robber survived at BBC Enterprises on 16mm with the Hartnell films made for overseas sales. Apparently there are also two sets of negatives for The Krotons at the BFI and BBC so maybe that survived at Enterprises too. The odd thing is that the surviving Hartnells had been withdrawn from sale by 1974 but still survived in 1978 when stories still for sale in 1974 had been destroyed by that time. Why keep the film negatives only for the stories where rights had expired years before? Yes I'm sure the BBC ran KROTONS from 16mm viewing prints not the 35mm masters. I had thought MIND ROBBER was just the 5th episode a 35mm print; something Ian Levine said. The BFI were able to complete the oddments of various Troughton. Season 2 Hartnell had negatives hidden at Enterprises which explains the good representation. Ian Levine said someone possibly projection previes or a producer deposited odd viewing prints in the Library perhaps so they could be used in Documentaries or reviews.
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Post by johnstewart on Mar 19, 2010 0:58:09 GMT
Seriously though (and even though this subject has been covered more times in the past than I care to mention), it isn't just the fact of the BBC wiping the tapes to save space that is the issue. It's also (possibly more so) that the quantity that WAS kept was not at all selected properly or at all a lot of the time. Which brings up the Quality issue. For instance, most of what was kept of Patrick Troughton's tenure as Doctor Who is widely regarded as being his weaker adventures. "The Dominators", "The Krotons" and "The Seeds of Death" are renowned for being amongst the worst of his era, yet they were kept whilst classics such as "Evil Of The Daleks", "The Macra Terror" and "Fury From The Deep" were massacred. Plus the weaker ones all date from his final season. They didn't bother to retain any complete adventures from his first two seasons! Therefore it meant for many years, we got a poor lopsided view of Troughton's era. "The Space Pirates" episode 2 was retained... it must be the most tedious, boring waste of film of all. Probably the worst episode. So there was no real rhyme nor reason behind what was kept. I recall thinking similar on seeing the 1981 'Dr Who Mag' listings. Thinking why on earth they had oddments of sideline stories like 'Enemy of the World' and 'Underwater Menace'. Though some accounts said the latter was kept as it was an expensive episode to make (3); it was later said that a number of the oddment episodes were just those rescued by a Collector from New Zealand or Australia. Apparently the oddments from 'Time Meddler'; 'War Machines'; 'Enemy of the World' and 'Faceless ones' present in 1981 came from that source. This when the respective Archive junked them. So it had no bearing on the fact that 'Evil of the Daleks' is widely held to be the best Troughton; nor that one episode of this and 'Fury' possibly cost the same as the whole of some of those sideline serials mentioned. Albeit that actually 'Meddler' and 'War Machines' are quite good stories; this is why it was such a mixture.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 19, 2010 11:43:52 GMT
I must admit that I don't recall watching Evil at all at the time to say whether it was that good (the surviving episode is very strong) but do recall Web Of Fear very well, which left a big impression on me and I still remember it to be one of the best Who tales from any doctor (the surviving episode of this one is also very atmospheric). Web was maybe more of a straight action yarn in the style of Pertwee / U.N.I.T. albeit probably one of the best realised, which is why it's as highly regarded by those of us that remember it. These stories are definitely the two i'd like to see most again.
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Post by davemachin on Mar 20, 2010 12:14:31 GMT
It's really strange how certain missing stories seem to gain or lose more credibility over the years. Back in the eighties the ones that people most wanted to see again were the two Troughton dalek stories, Tomb of the Cybermen and Web of Fear. It was as if nothing else was ever made, though I wouldn't particularly disagree with those being the key missing Troughton stories. Others like Fury From the Deep seemed just a distant forgotten memory until the discovery of that short (and very excellent) clip some years ago. It's modern reputation seems only to be based on this short sequence though as the amount of people that remember it first hand must be limited.
I can remember seeing some of the Troughton stories but not others, for some reason. Probably down to the fickleness of kids and my attention being diverted by some other fad at the time! The point I am making though is that the missing stories can't all have been classics (I would not expect The Highlanders, Underwater Menace, Enemy of the World or even The Moonbase to be that special for instance, if they suddenly turned up complete). That is too much to expect and I am sure that the reputations of those ones such as Evil, Web and Tomb is based on something real. The surviving episodes do seem to bear out the theory and, for me, Tomb also lives up to it's reputation. Although I know many people were let down by it when it reappeared in the flesh, I was not one of them.
A bit o/t, I know!
Dave
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Post by Tim Disney on Mar 20, 2010 22:34:43 GMT
I agree Dave. I've been laid up with tonsillitis recently and have been working my way through reconstructions of the Season 4 Troughtons. It's the first time I've seen these stories in their original sequence and there are undoubtedly some clunkers in there. I found The Underwater Menace tedious, The Highlanders was okay, but not great and dare I say it, but The Evil of the Daleks starts out superbly and then dips in the middle rising to average at the climax. The idea of Daleks with human traits was fun, but a bit gimmicky. However, all that said, I just love watching Patrick Troughton perform and think he was a born actor. I came into this world during his tenure as the doctor, so have no memories of seeing these the first time around, but liked what I saw in the early 90s. I'd love to see any of his episodes come back. But if you happen to have The Faceless Ones or Web of Fear in a cupboard...? I'm slowly being drawn over to the dark side! My interest is purely in the Troughton era, but please shoot me before I reach the convention stage.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 21, 2010 8:53:09 GMT
It's sod's law that the one Troughton season that survives almost complete is six, which has it's good points (Mind Robber and War Games, namely, although the others are enjoyable enough too) but not a patch on what I remember season five to be. Four had it's highs and lows.
Also count me as one of those that have never attended a DW convention (barring the one-off '83 Longleat event) or belonged to the fan club or anything, Tim. That's even though DW is one of my favourite shows of all (particularly for the Troughton / Pertwee eras though). I wouldn't cry at all if no more Hartnell episodes were ever uncovered as there is a pretty good cross section of his best and key stories. My interest archivally is based on filling up the Troughton shelves a bit more, to represent his era a bit more fully.
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Post by Alan Turrell on Mar 21, 2010 9:03:12 GMT
For me Patrick Troughton was the best Doctor not only because he was the first doctor i remember watching at the time but i thought the chemistry between him , Jamie ,Victoria and also Zoe was really genuine.I guess i must have seen something of the Hartnell stories because when it changed over to Troughton i thought at the time he could never be as good but don't actually remember watching any Hartnell .But once EVIL OF THE DALEKS was on that was it ,up until a few years ago i always thought this story was my favourite until i saw the reconstructions of the missing episodes .I agree with you Tim it does dip in the middle then picks up again towards the end .Ill always remember the end of episode 1 or the start of episode 2 when the dalek appears and exterminates is it Kennedy, it scared the living daylights out of me but i wanted more and was always dissapointed when it finished but couldn't wait for the next week. I could go on for ages about doctor who but it would take to long but will just say i cleary remember seeing the trailer for the ICE WARRIORS which again i really enjoyed also FURY FROM THE DEEP was frightenlng and in my opinion brilliant i guess everyone has their favourites but for me its Pat Troughton everytime.
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Post by John Wall on Mar 21, 2010 10:03:12 GMT
I agree Dave. I've been laid up with tonsillitis recently and have been working my way through reconstructions of the Season 4 Troughtons. It's the first time I've seen these stories in their original sequence and there are undoubtedly some clunkers in there. I found The Underwater Menace tedious, The Highlanders was okay, but not great and dare I say it, but The Evil of the Daleks starts out superbly and then dips in the middle rising to average at the climax. The idea of Daleks with human traits was fun, but a bit gimmicky. However, all that said, I just love watching Patrick Troughton perform and think he was a born actor. I came into this world during his tenure as the doctor, so have no memories of seeing these the first time around, but liked what I saw in the early 90s. I'd love to see any of his episodes come back. But if you happen to have The Faceless Ones or Web of Fear in a cupboard...? I'm slowly being drawn over to the dark side! My interest is purely in the Troughton era, but please shoot me before I reach the convention stage. I suspect, although not having seen it, that the reason Evil "dips" is that we're just not used to stories that long nowadays.
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Post by Tim Disney on Mar 21, 2010 10:21:26 GMT
I suspect, although not having seen it, that the reason Evil "dips" is that we're just not used to stories that long nowadays. Personally, I don't think it's so much the length making it dip, but padding drawing things out a bit too far. I don't know for sure, but I feel this is a four parter that's been stretched to cover the scheduled slots. Alan, I can understand your fear as that Dalek appears at the end of episode 1 of Evil. I remember as a kid getting very jumpy in the early seventies when the week was drawing to a close and the inevitable Dr Who trailers would start appearing out of the blue in regular BBC programming. I was absolutely terrified of that theme tune which invariably was the first thing to be heard in the Pertwee trailers (from memory). I seem to remember one where he was outdoors stood near Bessie and some sort of wobbly coloured mass was manifesting itself near the front wheel of the car. To my overactive imagination that was a Dalek trying to appear. I don't think Pertwee was a particularly comforting doctor at all. I found him as scary as the Daleks with all that face contorting and drama! ------- Edit ------ I just want to add that I love the scary feel that episode two of The Abominable Snowmen manages to evoke. I think some of it might be down to the grubby quality of the film recording, but there are some lovely moments of evocative and theatrical drama in the Troughton seasons.
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Post by John Wall on Mar 21, 2010 16:59:10 GMT
By modern standards there's little over 4 parts that isn't slow and padded.
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Post by johnstewart on Mar 22, 2010 18:56:31 GMT
I agree Dave. I've been laid up with tonsillitis recently and have been working my way through reconstructions of the Season 4 Troughtons. It's the first time I've seen these stories in their original sequence and there are undoubtedly some clunkers in there. I found The Underwater Menace tedious, The Highlanders was okay, but not great and dare I say it, but The Evil of the Daleks starts out superbly and then dips in the middle rising to average at the climax. The idea of Daleks with human traits was fun, but a bit gimmicky. However, all that said, I just love watching Patrick Troughton perform and think he was a born actor. I came into this world during his tenure as the doctor, so have no memories of seeing these the first time around, but liked what I saw in the early 90s. I'd love to see any of his episodes come back. But if you happen to have The Faceless Ones or Web of Fear in a cupboard...? I'm slowly being drawn over to the dark side! My interest is purely in the Troughton era, but please shoot me before I reach the convention stage. Definitely recalled from the repeat 'Evil' generally sustained interest over its length; something I didn't think 'The Daleks' did when I eventually saw that. 'Evil' went slow in 3 and 4 but picked up with the comedic friendly Daleks and the great quest by Jamie to save Victoria sequence. It certainly wasn't a cheap or dull story and an unusual one.
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