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Post by Richard Bignell on Jul 24, 2008 15:42:27 GMT
To be honest Brian, I think it's nonsense to suggest that it's nonsense!
Having acted as a financial secretary, a treasurer and a charity secretary at different times, I can say in all honesty that this isn't something I would wish to organise or touch with a bargepole, precisely because of the potentially difficult issues involved.
Though if you're so amazed that fandom hasn't done it, can I ask why you aren't setting up such a scheme right now?
Richard
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Post by Brian Wilson on Jul 24, 2008 16:20:10 GMT
To be honest Brian, I think it's nonsense to suggest that it's nonsense! Having acted as a financial secretary, a treasurer and a charity secretary at different times, I can say in all honesty that this isn't something I would wish to organise or touch with a bargepole, precisely because of the potentially difficult issues involved. Though if you're so amazed that fandom hasn't done it, can I ask why you aren't setting up such a scheme right now? Richard Richard, There is no doubt that it would take some organising. The best way to approach it would be first to raise some cash and get a legal document drawn up. All of the potentially difficult issues would first be discussed on forums such as this - as many probabilities and outcomes as possible would be considered. A website set up with paypal would contain a copy of the legal document. Before anyone contributed they would see that document and be quite clear as to the details. There simply cannot be any complexity if things were set out in such a way. Further to that however, I would suggest that the document could make clear that after a certain period of time - say 10 years, if nothing had been returned then all the money should be donated to a selected charity. Complex issues can arise from any contractual/legal agreement - some situations more than others. I would appreciate if you could outline what you think might be some of the potentially difficult issues with such a venture. The reason I am not setting such a scheme up at the moment is because I would never do such a thing as an individual. That would be crazy. If, on the other hand some other fans displayed genuine interest about such a scheme then I would be more than happy to thrash/debate the plans out, offer some intitial set-up cash from my own pocket and help in any way that I could. If there was such a scheme set up right now would you contribute to it?
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Post by Richard Bignell on Jul 24, 2008 16:28:29 GMT
If there was such a scheme set up right now would you contribute to it? Not in a million years! ;D Richard
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Post by Brian Wilson on Jul 24, 2008 16:36:26 GMT
If there was such a scheme set up right now would you contribute to it? Not in a million years! ;D Richard I see that you edited the above post. Was your initial response 'Not in half a million years!' ?
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Post by Adrian Gregg on Jul 24, 2008 16:56:06 GMT
what the hell does "looking in all places (different or the same)" mean.. Eh eh eh.. how old are you..... you think this has just all started or something.... don't you think that it's ALL BEEN done before?.... but hey if you DO have any NEW ideas do em.. don;t come on here thinking you will get any pat on back's here. look i'll state again... I know many many ....many film collectors. who HAVE missing material.. they will never never never never give it back FULL STOP.. they will never ever be on the net or have a email adress or to put it blankly, care for you who seem to only like one part or thier collection .. if this keeps you up at night chewing your fingernails well get a life.. because when these guys ( who now are in thier late 60's to late 70's) Die thier films will be junked full stop.. no relations wanting to make a quick buck on ebay myths here. they will go .. this is all first hand info and i wish i could say otherwise. be glad of what we have.. treasure it. and think of how many other shows have much larger holes in em.. and go look for them..
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Post by Adrian Gregg on Jul 24, 2008 17:41:49 GMT
look i won't name names. but i could list about 12 fellows that have known missing TV and another 3 that have features. that are known to be missing. I trust these guys. they trust me. but all im saying if someone was to raise public attention to the fact that shows other than mr who are missing mabey just mabey some who could be found.. Remember the name Dr. Who to some collectors i know is a dirty word. they have been burnt before. they have much more interesting marterial, comedy, drama, adventure. but if there isnt a sign of a dalek in it most so called "msiing episode hunters" don't seem to care
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Post by Adrian Gregg on Jul 24, 2008 17:43:22 GMT
ok one earl grey, a breif look at my script (so adlibbing is avioded!!) and straight to bed. thanks and good night
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Post by John Andersen on Jul 24, 2008 17:49:59 GMT
I quite agree. What worked many years ago apparently is not working now. Two episodes in over fifteen years? That is pretty bad. Both people with the two prints didn't know that those were missing episodes? There has to be a new and hopefully a better way to get the message out. Have you considered the possibility that the reason why there have only been 2 episodes found in 15 years is that most (if not all) of what was out there to be found already has been found? It sounds like you are saying that we should not even try anything new to inform people about lost television. Well, you have convinced me to stop looking for lost episodes. Why bother? It is easier to assume that all the material that still exists has been found already.
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Post by JOHN SMITH on Jul 24, 2008 18:45:22 GMT
Whoa, go away for the day and all hell breaks loose.
So let's just all leave supposition to the side for a few minutes, and just deal with known facts.
Fact: There MAY be more missing Dr Who episodes still out there somewhere. Fact: There MAY not be more missing episodes of Dr Who still out there.
However on the plus side for more recoveries
Fact: Just because one place has 'supposedly' been looked in once, it doesn't mean to say that that place will no longer wield anything. Just ask TV Asia in 1992 or Villiers House in 1988.
Fact: Every reel in every can in every archive in every foreign country who was ever known to have purchased Dr Who, has NOT been visually checked, and in all probability never will be.
Fact: Returned episodes seen on the conveyor belt at the BBC, were taken (then immediately returned) just to show how easy it was to take them in the first place.
Fact: Even at the BBC (never mind the foreign stations), at least 2 employees who were asked to junk some Dr Who material, did not, and took it home instead.
Fact: Even a print which was signed off as being destroyed (Crusade) was intercepted and (presumably) bought before it hit landfill. (Would be interesting to know if the person who 'acquired' the prints at Villiers instead of junking them, signed the relavant cards off as being, 'junked'.
Fact: Even at the BBC (never mind the foreign stations) prints of Dr Who were taken, copies made, and then the prints returned. Does anyone even know the whereabouts of EVERY print of every copy of those stories?
Fact: No one knows the exact number of prints made of missing episodes for foreign sales, or even for test/viewing purposes by the BBC. Or even the country of the last whereabouts of the prints of the foreign sales. It's not even known if the regeneration sequence of TP4 for Blue Peter was from a full print or just a telecine of the sequence itself.
Fact: It is not known where many of the prints of the returned episodes via private collectors originally came from. Or how the original 'seller' acquired them in the first place. And last but certainly not least
Fact: Some 'collectors' fiercely hoard their acquisitions, just look at artwork (and other rarities) that get bought and then never see the light of day again for generations. And whenever you read about art (and other rarities) being bought it is virtually always bought ANONYMOUSLY over the end of a phone or even ebay, or just plain privately between 2 individuals with no advertising whatsoever. But in all the above, no one even knows who has bought what apart from the buyer and the seller. So what's not to say that some film collectors are therefore just as possessive. Hell, if someone has got 'Power OTD' or any other missing Dr Who in its entirety, do you honestly believe that they are just going to turn into a good samaritan and hand it/them over?? (Just look at NZ, many collectors there advised against Grenville returning the print, so need I say any more about hoarding)
On the minus side for recoveries
Fact: Only 2 complete episodes have been recovered since 1992 and both of these were from film collectors.
Personal opinion.
Due to the facts mentioned for further recoveries being possible. No one will EVER know when the well has run dry, because no one knows how much water ('missing prints still in existence') was ever in the well in the first place. Because it is just not known how many employees of how many stations, either took and just kept, or took and copied for sale, episodes of Dr Who. Or how many other prints in whatever country were intercepted one way or another before being buried. Or how many prints are still in archives which will never be looked at.
However what seems to be evident, is that any future recoveries of lost Dr Who, (if any recoveries are still possible) will PROBABLY now ONLY come from private collectors who have either knowing it is a lost episode deliberately kept it, or who have kept it simply because they did not know it was missing. And if it is the latter that is the case, then like Laurence said, what worked in the past to get the message across is not working now. And if the former is the case, NO amount of advertising as missing, or advertising as wishing to purchase, is going to make a 'hoarder' relinquish their 'property' until their hands are cold. And there I included 'advertising as wishing to purchase' because no amount of advertising as wishing to purchase ever makes an art collector/gem collector/coin collector or any other kind of collector decide to sell what it is that they have, simply because what they know they have, they want to KEEP.
Of course all 108 missing episodes will NEVER be recovered until backwards time travel becomes possible (which it NEVER will). But personal opinion, and the nature of the human race to be unhonest, and to sometimes hoard, leads me to believe that there are STILL some episodes that have slipped the net as it were, and are STILL in private hands, and IF there indeed are, then I would only expect them to resurface within the next 30 years when all the hoarding hands are more or less cold.
We can talk, debate, hypothesise and conjecture about lost Who until the cows come home. But realistically it is now just a waiting game rather than a talking or looking game.
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Post by John Fleming on Jul 24, 2008 19:17:48 GMT
Ade, if I knew anyone who had missing TV and was about to pop their clogs then as soon as they did so I'd get the material from their collections and return it. If you think that's betraying your mates then so what, they aren't alive to know it.
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Post by Jon Preddle on Jul 24, 2008 22:29:25 GMT
Fact: Even a print which was signed off as being destroyed (Crusade) was intercepted and (presumably) bought before it hit landfill. Er, no. If you mean The Lion, not Fact at all. The Lion was not signed off as being destroyed. Like most of the Troughtons, the 'fate' of that episode beyond April 1970 is not recorded in NZBC's film holdings documentation.
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Post by JOHN SMITH on Jul 25, 2008 6:15:26 GMT
Fact: Even a print which was signed off as being destroyed (Crusade) was intercepted and (presumably) bought before it hit landfill. Er, no. If you mean The Lion, not Fact at all. The Lion was not signed off as being destroyed. Like most of the Troughtons, the 'fate' of that episode beyond April 1970 is not recorded in NZBC's film holdings documentation. Yes I did mean The Lion And if you have ever read the article about the circumstances regarding the recovery of it. (Richard Bignell did post a link to the article in this forum not long ago) you would have seen that The Lion was indeed recovered from a transport in NZ that was taking redundant prints to landfill. It, and many more reels were recovered from that transport, but not all of them as the guy's van could only hold 300 or so prints, and of the ones saved, Lion was the only Dr Who amongst them. So unless something in that recovery story is untrue. Then it is FACT that Lion was indeed recovered after being signed off as destroyed.
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Post by Richard Bignell on Jul 25, 2008 7:04:56 GMT
And if you have ever read the article about the circumstances regarding the recovery of it. (Richard Bignell did post a link to the article in this forum not long ago) you would have seen that The Lion was indeed recovered from a transport in NZ that was taking redundant prints to landfill. It, and many more reels were recovered from that transport, but not all of them as the guy's van could only hold 300 or so prints, and of the ones saved, Lion was the only Dr Who amongst them. So unless something in that recovery story is untrue. Then it is FACT that Lion was indeed recovered after being signed off as destroyed. Oh dear, oh dear, oh dear... Perhaps you should consider some other FACTS, speople... 1 - Jon Preddle lives in New Zealand and not only knows the people and the circumstances involved with the reappearance of The Lion first hand, he also provided research for that same article you refer to and indeed is cited in it. 2 - Jon has personally been through the NZBC's film documentation and so knows better than anyone what it actually does and doesn't say. Richard
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Post by Adrian Gregg on Jul 25, 2008 7:29:34 GMT
"Ade, if I knew anyone who had missing TV and was about to pop their clogs then as soon as they did so I'd get the material from their collections and return it. If you think that's betraying your mates then so what, they aren't alive to know it."
and that attitude guys is why you will never get anything back from these guys.
to be honest most want to see thier films given to someone else who will look after them and respect and love whats on em. but with most missing tv hunters ONLY interested in dr who and NOTHING ELSE. these guy's would rather let thier family dump the lot. than having only 01% of thier life's work cherished. ive seen it happen.
think of it like this. you have a large LP collection. you have many rare and lost albums say. in 30 years for some bloody reason say one of your lp's happens to be the only one in existance. its called "beatle barkers" now mad beatle obsessed fans have been trying to part you with the lp for about 5 years, since you made a candid remark so someone waiting in line at the bank. now you love Jazz, not this bloody dog barking lp. but you cherish your rare jazz collection and hope one day to hand it to someone who would REALLY appreciate the Jazz cuts. would you want to give your entire lifes work to some spotty herbit who ONLY likes the beats and hates jazz or at least shows no intrest in it. well there ya go.. that's the kind of remarks some collectors tell me they feel.
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Post by Richard Bignell on Jul 25, 2008 7:47:14 GMT
but with most missing tv hunters ONLY interested in dr who and NOTHING ELSE. That's a very large and very sweeping generalisation, Ade. It's also very untrue. Richard
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