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Post by Richard Bignell on Jul 24, 2008 8:30:38 GMT
Not really. There is so much TV out there (and continues to turn up in diverse ways) that in all probability there is more DW. It needs deeper digging is all. But that really isn't true, is it? There were only so many telerecordings made, so it's always going to be a case of diminishing returns. At some point you are going to arrive at the situation where there are no more missing episodes left to find. The problem is, we're never going to know where that point is and as Steven has indicated, we may already be there. We just don't know. Richard
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Post by Deleted on Jul 24, 2008 9:24:41 GMT
You said it yourself. We don't know. So it's simply not possible to say that we've arrived at a point where nothing else is to be found. If anything, the opposite has been proved to be the case as missing TV turns up all the time from all different sources. Items may well continue to surface decades after being lost. It's not a known or measurable quantity that we're talking about.
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Post by beesa on Jul 24, 2008 9:56:08 GMT
Generally, the people who had the enthusiasm for DW back in the 1960's are approaching an age where there personal belongings will be sifted through and distributed by their families.
I would suggest that the next decade or so will deliver a few findings.
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Post by Richard Bignell on Jul 24, 2008 10:02:23 GMT
Yes, but your "Not really" reply is saying that Steve is in some way wrong with his statement and that "in all probability" there are more episodes out there and that it just needs deeper digging to winkle them out.
My point is that's just wishful thinking on your part you can't say he's in error because we don't know if we're now at the point when everything that possibly could come back actually has. If that's the case, any "deeper digging" wouldn't make any difference because there would be nothing to come back anyway. Therefore any assertion that there definitely is or definitely isn't any more episodes to find is pointless.
What may or may not happen with other missing television has nothing to do with the issue!
Richard
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Post by Deleted on Jul 24, 2008 10:17:58 GMT
Exactly. So your expressing the view that no more episodes are likely to turn up is equally pointless as it is just the same: an opinion. It cannot be proven something does not exist out there. So there isn't any kind of final word on this that can be delivered with any authority. Let's wait and see is my view...
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Post by Brian Wilson on Jul 24, 2008 10:44:29 GMT
One thing I have often wondered is just how thoroughly the BBC archives have been checked. Has every single reel of 16mm film been examined? When I say examined I don't just mean the header and first few frames - I mean entire films. I don't think it is out of the question that some films might have been jumbled up with footage from other programs.
I had heard a few years ago that the BBC was in the process of digitising the entire archive. Does anyone know a completion date for this project?
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Regarding the original language episodes of The Daleks that Ian Levine discovered at Villiers House in 1978. Is it known which country returned these episodes? Is there any way to establish which country they were returned from? Similarly with the poor quality Episode 5 of The Daleks that Francis Watson returned in 2003. What do we know about this episode? Doug Wulf and I spoke with Sue Malden about this last year;
DW: And he describes how on a fateful day in 1978, he found all positive and negative prints of the episodes of The Daleks bound up with tape and ready to be junked. However, in 2004, Francis Watson, a former BBC employee, returned a print of Day of Armageddon, which is Episode 2 of The Daleks’ Masterplan. He also returned a print of an episode of the original The Daleks: Episode 5, titled The Expedition, that already existed in the archives, since, as I mentioned, that episode avoided destruction in 1978. It was expensive to make film recordings in those days, so any guess as to why this extra copy of this episode might have existed? Could it have been a viewing print? Could other additional prints of this sort exist? If so, why?
SM: Well, I think what would have happened is this. Obviously, BBC Enterprises, who were doing the sales, would have struck the negative from the videotape. Unfortunately, for all the reasons we have talked about, some of the videotape would then have got wiped. Enterprises would have kept the master negative, and, from that, made as many prints as they needed. It’s quite likely that they would have sent one set of prints, for example, to New Zealand, another set to Canada, and another to Australia. So, they probably struck many prints from that one negative and distributed them off to their customers, and the ones that Ian and I found in Enterprises were a set that had come back, well, I can’t remember where from, but the complete seven had come back from another country for destruction, in that sense. Enterprises were going to destroy the negatives, because they had finished selling the programme, thought there was no more value in the negatives, and had assumed that the master was still in the BBC archives. So this kind of “spare print” that Francis Watson found could have been one from a batch supplied to another broadcaster.
DW: Oh, I see, another returned print.
SM: Yes. Why only one survived, who knows? But then, you find that many of the broadcasters, once their rights to use the material had run out, as I said before, they would either send them back to the BBC, or they would destroy it, or they couldn’t be bothered to do anything with it locally. Now, if they destroyed it, they probably just chucked it out into skips as rubbish and all sorts of stuff could be found in the skips. Sometimes when people do that, in theory, they’re always supposed to let the film spool off out of the can, so that it couldn’t be taken by anybody else and reused, as a way of protecting the rights. But maybe people got a bit lazy, if they were dumping a load of films, and forgot to take one or two out of the cans. It could be how odd ones survived.
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Post by Richard Bignell on Jul 24, 2008 10:54:15 GMT
Exactly. So your expressing the view that no more episodes are likely to turn up is equally pointless as it is just the same: an opinion. Errr, that's not what I said at all. At no point have I said that no further missing episodes will be recovered and that we've reached the point of nil-return. I don't know either way. What I'm taking issue with is your response to Steven's post that all that's needed is "deeper digging". ;D Richard
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Post by Richard Bignell on Jul 24, 2008 10:58:58 GMT
Regarding the original language episodes of The Daleks that Ian Levine discovered at Villiers House in 1978. Is it known which country returned these episodes? No we don't for certain. If the Algeria idea is correct, I would guess that they probably would have come from there. I think it is very likely that Ian's asseration that he found 28 English and Arabic negatives and prints of The Daleks in the storeroom of Villiers House is just plain wrong. Richard
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Post by Rich Cornock on Jul 24, 2008 11:00:38 GMT
Generally, the people who had the enthusiasm for DW back in the 1960's are approaching an age where there personal belongings will be sifted through and distributed by their families. I would suggest that the next decade or so will deliver a few findings. this is true, the biggest worry here however is that the relatives who dispose of a deceased belongings may have no idea of their importance and just bin them in rush to clear a whole house
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Post by Deleted on Jul 24, 2008 11:10:49 GMT
What I'm taking issue with is your response to Steven's post that all that's needed is "deeper digging". ;D If the old methods of searching have dried up, it proves nothing one way or the other. Why not give the idea the benefit of the doubt rather than pour scepticism on it?
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Post by Richard Bignell on Jul 24, 2008 11:18:43 GMT
If the old methods of searching have dried up, it proves nothing one way or the other. Why not give the idea the benefit of the doubt rather than pour scepticism on it? Blimey! You really don't get this, do you?! I give up... Richard
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Post by Brian Wilson on Jul 24, 2008 11:19:19 GMT
Regarding the original language episodes of The Daleks that Ian Levine discovered at Villiers House in 1978. Is it known which country returned these episodes? No we don't for certain. If the Algeria idea is correct, I would guess that they probably would have come from there. I think it is very likely that Ian's asseration that he found 28 English and Arabic negatives and prints of The Daleks in the storeroom of Villiers House is just plain wrong. Richard Thanks for your reply Richard. I have always found that strange myself. Why would a complete set of negatives for The Daleks exist in Arabic? The only explanation I can think of is that it might have been related to the language dubbing technology of the time? So, if we went on the assumption that the English language copy of The Daleks came from Algeria, have we any clues as to the origin of the episode (The Daleks 5, The Expedition) that Francis Watson returned in 2003? Have the Restoration Team had a look at that reel? Can we, for example, establish that it was struck from the same negatives that Ian Levine discovered in 1978?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 24, 2008 12:28:47 GMT
Blimey! You really don't get this, do you?! Richard Nothing to get. The possibility is always there for further recoveries despite your trying to imply that's the lot now.
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Post by Richard Bignell on Jul 24, 2008 12:37:33 GMT
The possibility is always there for further recoveries despite your trying to imply that's the lot now. Except, as I've already said, I haven't implied that in the slightest. Richard
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Post by Brian Wilson on Jul 24, 2008 15:35:25 GMT
I am very much of the opinion that a well-advertised substantial cash reward could achieve some returns. To be honest, it amazes me that fandom has never gotten together and made this happen.
It's simple really. Money gets things done. Missing episodes are precious to the fans of Dr Who - not so to someone who is not a fan.
The reasons against such a venture that I have read on the internet over the years have been nothing short of ridiculous. Reasons like;
Say someone claims they have a lost episode just in order to steal the money? (Utter nonsense - you would have to be mad to give money to someone before receiving the goods)
It would take a lot of organising. There would be a lot of delicate legal issues. (Again, nonsense - that argument is just making a mountain out of a molehill).
It would set a bad precedent - it's a bad idea to put a monetary value on these things. (More nonsense - of course it isn't a bad idea. It's the only option we have to create an incentive for people to look for these things.)
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