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Post by John Andersen on Jul 8, 2008 4:18:31 GMT
I don't know anyone who wants a Dalek life size or otherwise. I don't know anyone who would part with such a possible find for £2000 (the price of a good holiday/a month's wages etc.) I don't think the original hoarder/enthusiast would see those as anything like a good swap. Do you? Well, hopefully some prints still exist and they might actually fall into the hands of somebody that would be willing to return the films for 2,000 pounds. There could be some people that do not know what they have in their collections. If I ever got my hands on lost Doctor Who episodes, I would contact Ian and send him proof that the episodes existed and meet with him to show that I am on the level. The money would come in handy and I would like my fellow Doctor Who fans to enjoy those episodes. |
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Post by JOHN SMITH on Jul 8, 2008 4:59:25 GMT
speople. My friend might well be talking BS except the circumstances indicate to me that there is something in this. I would be foolish not to attempt to follow it up. There may well be a misunderstanding or exaggeration somewhere along the line. Just now I simply don't know. Yes, if I personally had anything, then the very first thing I would do is post a screen shot, even if it is of a rusty tin. With what I am learning from this thread to have done such a thing would have been putting the cart before the horse though. So: I don't know anyone who wants a Dalek life size or otherwise. I don't know anyone who would part with such a possible find for £2000 (the price of a good holiday/a month's wages etc.) I don't think the original hoarder/enthusiast would see those as anything like a good swap. Do you? In particular, I don't know anyone who (anymore) feels that the British Broadcasting Corporation deserves to be handed on a plate something which could be worth an awful lot of money - rewarding their total and utter incompetence and lack of vision. As a spotty teenager I used to record episodes of the Radio top twenty religiously. I wouldn't dream of "junking" a single tape. How could "Auntie Beeb" do what she did to my (our) beloved Dr Who? And if there is the slightest chance that someone has a 'missing episode' the BBC want now to be rewarded for it's incompetence!!! I must be ranting because I have reused the word incompetence. Which brings me back to the original question "Why declare a missing episode?" It's starting to get a bit cyclical isn't it . . . . . although in between the cycles there is some realisation. In general your post seems quite rude and with a certain tone of anymosity to it too. Whether or not 2000 EP is the correct 'price' for a 'missing' episode (when we have no idea what the episode in question is) is beside the point. What the point is is that you came onto this forum and made a thread implying that you seem to know something about one. Well like I say. Arrange for a screenshot, taken by pausing the film and if necessary using a mobile phone camera (but a digital one would obviously be better) and uploading the pic here from an internet cafe to protect your ip address and anonymity. If it IS something that is previously unknown, then it can be discussed further (i.e price and everything else) but you obviously can understand people here who treat your claim with a pinch of salt and you with the same too, because such claims and such people have all been heard 10 million times before. So without wanting to sound coarse, please either load up, or shut up. |
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Post by Doug Wulf on Jul 8, 2008 5:12:55 GMT
speople. My friend might well be talking BS except the circumstances indicate to me that there is something in this. I would be foolish not to attempt to follow it up. There may well be a misunderstanding or exaggeration somewhere along the line. Just now I simply don't know. Yes, if I personally had anything, then the very first thing I would do is post a screen shot, even if it is of a rusty tin. With what I am learning from this thread to have done such a thing would have been putting the cart before the horse though. So: I don't know anyone who wants a Dalek life size or otherwise. I don't know anyone who would part with such a possible find for £2000 (the price of a good holiday/a month's wages etc.) I don't think the original hoarder/enthusiast would see those as anything like a good swap. Do you? In particular, I don't know anyone who (anymore) feels that the British Broadcasting Corporation deserves to be handed on a plate something which could be worth an awful lot of money - rewarding their total and utter incompetence and lack of vision. As a spotty teenager I used to record episodes of the Radio top twenty religiously. I wouldn't dream of "junking" a single tape. How could "Auntie Beeb" do what she did to my (our) beloved Dr Who? And if there is the slightest chance that someone has a 'missing episode' the BBC want now to be rewarded for it's incompetence!!! I must be ranting because I have reused the word incompetence. Which brings me back to the original question "Why declare a missing episode?" It's starting to get a bit cyclical isn't it . . . . . although in between the cycles there is some realisation. There is no need to "declare" possession of a missing episode. Francis Watson was in possession of a missing episode (Daleks' Masterplan 2). He didn't post to any online forum about it. He simply decided to return it to the BBC. The result was that people everywhere can enjoy it today on DVD. As far as I know, he was not pestered about it. There is no need to go making claims on the internet. The reason there is so much emotion out there is that virtually all such claims are spurious and people get weary of all the hoaxes and disappointments. If in possession of a missing episode, your friend can do nothing, or let the BBC make a copy for the purposes of restoration and release on DVD. It's a personal choice. If there is anger against the BBC due to the short-sighted destruction of so many episodes, there can now be some admiration of the BBC for the great care that is taken in restoring these episodes for release on DVD. |
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Post by JOHN SMITH on Jul 8, 2008 6:18:39 GMT
Al: Your post also seems to blame the BBC.
However EVERY junking was done ENTIRELY to policy at that time. If you care to read about why the junkings came about in the first place. You will realise that it was for a conglomeration of reasons. In no particular order
A: The actors union 'equity' was afraid that if repeat showings of programmes (not just Dr Who) took place. That it would in general put actors/actresses out of work.
B: Therefore the showing of any repeats (of any BBC programme), was limited to a certain number of times, and all within a certain time span.
C: The episodes still missing are in the main, in black and white. When the junkings of the 16mm prints started in 1972?? colour TV had appeared and foreign broadcasters were no longer interested in buying old B&W episodes of Doctor Who.
D: Therefore the commercial value of these 16mm prints which could no longer be shown on British TV due to the time limit for a 'repeat' expiring, and which no ther country wanted to purchase for broadcast, was to all purposes, nil.
E: The place where the 16mm prints of all the BBC's programmes were kept, Villiers House, was not some transcendentally bottomless pit. Unwanted, unneeded material therefore had to go, and it did. End of story. No one to blame. No one to feel resentment towards.
The fact that some material was saved was that:
A: A 'late' purchase for broadcast of mainly the 1st and 2nd seasons of Doctor Who was made by Algeria in the early 70's. This resulted in the prints being returned to Villiers House well into the 70's.
B: It was felt that a few random episodes of Doctor Who should be sent to the BBC's film and video/television library in order to keep a small record for historical reasons of the TV of the 60's. Which is why we have odd episodes such as Space Pirates and a couple of others left.
C: A fan who did not know any junkings were taking place, and with money to spare. Decided to ask the BBC if he could purchase copies of old Doctor Who programmes for his personal collection. Please bear in mind that this is NOT a normal request. Eventually after no doubt quite a few discussions, he was allowed to purchase copies of old stories. And it was at this point that it was realised that many episodes had been seemingly lost forever beause they had already been junked. In the main, the only survivors were those prints of the 1st 2 seasons which had been returned by Algeria after their transmissions had finished and the expiration time of repeats had passed.
Still, we are ALL lucky, that some fans sat in front of the tv week in week out and recorded the audio broadcasts from every episode. Some of them in a simple rudimentary way, with just a microphone in front of the tv speaker. But as far as I am aware, the best audio recordings come from a fan who coupled up his audio recording equipment directly to the tv audio out board, resulting in near perfect quality audio of all the episodes, including the missing ones.
All Doctor Who fans can therefore enjoy every original episode in one form or another.
Whether anyone else ever comes forward and produces a 16mm print of a missing episode is unknown. But realistically this would now only come about by the current holder of this episode passing away and friends/relatives coming forward with the 'missing treasure'.
What people don't need are rumours/claims of I know someone with this and with that, I've watched this and that. People just need 1 single screenshot. End of story.
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Post by Richard Bignell on Jul 8, 2008 7:31:43 GMT
A: A 'late' purchase for broadcast of mainly the 1st and 2nd seasons of Doctor Who was made by Algeria in the early 70's. This resulted in the prints being returned to Villiers House well into the 70's. Just a couple of points here. The thought about Algeria is a summation and not an actual provable fact. It's more of a best-fit scenario which helps to explain how most of the first two seasons survive relatively intact! The film library didn't really keep Doctor Who episodes for "historical reasons". Their remit was to hold anything that was originated/transmitted from a film source - hence the reason why they held the episodes that been recorded directly onto 35mm film for broadcast rather than VT (i.e. The Space Pirates #2). The other 16mm material would have been their largely by accident. Richard |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 8, 2008 7:58:56 GMT
I think the most obvious argument against "hoarders" having missing episodes is the fact that there are very few 16mm prints of Dr. Who in private collections at all. I only know of two collections that have more than 5 episodes, and about a dozen other collectors who have a few prints each. But is it realistic for you to expect to know what the contents are of every film collectors' collection there is out there? We can only talk about what we know of existing and not what we don't. No matter how many other collectors' film libraries we personally know the contents of, there are a million and one others we don't. It's not possible to say what is out there or isn't, what is languishing forgotten somewhere and what isn't. As the recent rediscovery of the missing "Metropolis" material after 80 years proves, we simply can't say what'll turn up eventually. |
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Post by John Fleming on Jul 8, 2008 8:30:00 GMT
Well if I had a friend with any missing Who then they'd have to be a bloody good friend for me not to "borrow" it and get it back into the collector's circuit one way or another. Of course this won't happen because the whole story is BS.
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Post by JOHN SMITH on Jul 8, 2008 9:07:33 GMT
Well if I had a friend with any missing Who then they'd have to be a bloody good friend for me not to "borrow" it and get it back into the collector's circuit one way or another. Of course this won't happen because the whole story is BS. And it is of note that all of the more recent private collection discoveries are from people who didn't previously tell anyone what they had. Hence no one even knew that they existed until the relavant print just surfaced out of the blue with no warning, rumour, friend said this, friend showed that or anything else. For example how many times had 'The Lion' changed hands without a single word or rumour of existence reaching fandom? I've seen somewhere that it was more than 5. Which is astounding. Because no one is going to make me believe that out of all those previous owners, not 1 of them knew that it was a 'lost' episode. (Film collecting it seems can be a dark, secretive world). Since it is documented that 'Lion' and the rest of the story went to a storage facility after it was rejected for broadcast in NZ. What chances that the other missing episodes from this story exist 'very very very quietly' in NZ??. Can 'copies', before selling an original 16mm print to someone else, be made just as quietly as what it seems the print itself can change hands?. Is it possible that there was actually more than 1 16mm print of 'Lion' in NZ before it came into Grenville's possession??. Can't remember if 'Lion' came with a tin, in which case the tin itelf is probably the original. But is there are way of knowing if the print in the tin was THE original or just a copy of the original??? |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 8, 2008 11:27:32 GMT
Exactly my point. Who fans tend to think of all film collectors as people that obviously recognise the value of such items (or even that they LIKE DW). Chances are a lot of collectors don't even place much emphasis on TV film prints generally, let alone DW specifically, being more interested in cinema. And that's not taking into account all the "surprise" finds where someone has a print in their shed, totally oblivious to it's rarity, not even a collector as such. All of this is good news as regards the potential for further recoveries though.
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Post by Steven Sigel on Jul 8, 2008 14:08:54 GMT
My point is that if there were lots of episodes in private hands, you would expect them to turn up for sale from time to time -- but they dont. The major UK film dealers - Derann, CHC, Paul Foster, Ian O'Reilley buy large film collections all the time, but I don't think I've ever seen a Dr. Who print for sale on one of their lists... The same is true of Harry Moll in Australia, and all the US film dealers. You also almost never see them on ebay - and what I have seen on ebay have mostly been copies of the prints that were "borrowed" in the 1980s.
If there were any sort of quantity of episodes out there, you would expect them to turn up from time to time for sale -- just like Star Trek prints turn up all the time.
This doesnt mean that there aren't any out there - just that they're not common.
(which is no surprising given that it is known that there were only a limited # of prints stuck and that most of those were returned or destroyed).
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Post by Greg H on Jul 8, 2008 15:45:39 GMT
If only it was a simple as money I get the feeling that hoarders are quite rich to able to have afforded the episodes anyway and money doesn't really interest them, I think it's more the fact that they have a unique something that makes them special and to give it away even as a copy would mean loosing that special feeling and also control of that thing, I just realised I'm describing Golem from Lord of the Rings, perhaps that is a close match  Yes yes! Very golem-like behaviour!! Nice one |
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Post by Greg H on Jul 8, 2008 15:48:21 GMT
I think the most obvious argument against "hoarders" having missing episodes is the fact that there are very few 16mm prints of Dr. Who in private collections at all. I only know of two collections that have more than 5 episodes, and about a dozen other collectors who have a few prints each. And most of those prints are either a) dupe prints of the half dozen shows that were "borrowed" from the BBC in the 1980s, or extra prints from Ian Levine's collection when it was sold. I'm sure there are some others out there, but the point is that even prints of existing episodes are very rare. Also - it's very hard to keep something like this a secret -- For instance, When Evil of the Daleks and Faceless Ones were found, word got out pretty quickly. IIRC though they didnt make much of an attempt to keep it secret, they tried to sell cheap tickets to publicly show em to fans. Fair enough really, definitely not selfish hoarder behaviour. |
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Post by JOHN SMITH on Jul 8, 2008 17:50:18 GMT
My point is that if there were lots of episodes in private hands, you would expect them to turn up for sale from time to time -- but they dont. The major UK film dealers - Derann, CHC, Paul Foster, Ian O'Reilley buy large film collections all the time, but I don't think I've ever seen a Dr. Who print for sale on one of their lists... The same is true of Harry Moll in Australia, and all the US film dealers. You also almost never see them on ebay - and what I have seen on ebay have mostly been copies of the prints that were "borrowed" in the 1980s. If there were any sort of quantity of episodes out there, you would expect them to turn up from time to time for sale -- just like Star Trek prints turn up all the time. This doesnt mean that there aren't any out there - just that they're not common. (which is no surprising given that it is known that there were only a limited # of prints stuck and that most of those were returned or destroyed). Ah, but you seem to miss the point a little here. It is just the opposite, you WON'T expect 16mm prints of lost Dr Who stories to just pop up for sale on ebay. Because they would have the BBC jumping all over the place to get the episode back immediately. Since strictly speaking, it's current owner should not even have it in their possession in the first place. Many NZ collectors advised against Grenville going public with 'Lion'. Hence this was strictly a one off incident that we are not likely to see again. And like I stated somewhere above, Lion had been sold 'privately' quite a number of times in the past before it even reached Grenville, and yet no one in fandom ever heard a whisper about the previous sales, for the above reason. (And given Who's publicity over the years, no one is going to convince me that somewhere along the private sales line, that someone did NOT realise that Lion was a missing episode) It's the same in UK too. If private sales of a missing episode do occur, they occur VERY discreetly, just like Lion had been for so many years. Star Trek prints are different to Dr Who prints. In that A: There are a lot more of them and B: It is legal to own and publicly sell them. Correct me if I am wrong, but wasn't there a situation in UK where some guy in Portsmouth bragged of having a 1 part Troughton/Cyberman story, and he then practically had the BBC knocking on the door asking for it back?? |
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Post by Steven Sigel on Jul 8, 2008 18:10:34 GMT
No - actually I think you missed my point -- The point is that EXISTING episodes do not turn up on ebay very much which means that there are not very many of them out there... This means that there are very few prints in private hands of ANY episodes (missing or not). The Star Trek analogy was to show that when there are a lot of prints around, some of them are going to turn up for sale. BTW it IS legal to own 16mm Dr. Who prints - and in fact the majority of 16mm prints in private hands were prints that Ian Levine purchased directly from the BBC.... Also - my undertanding of the BBC policy now is that they have no problem with private ownership of prints no matter where they came from - they just ask that if you have something missing, you let them borrow it. (I've loaned them about a dozen formerly missing films). The New Zealand case was one where the owner had no idea that the episode was missing until someone told him. And it didn't take long after that for it to be returned... In the end, the BBC copied the print and returned it to him and he sold it. My point is that if there were lots of episodes in private hands, you would expect them to turn up for sale from time to time -- but they dont. The major UK film dealers - Derann, CHC, Paul Foster, Ian O'Reilley buy large film collections all the time, but I don't think I've ever seen a Dr. Who print for sale on one of their lists... The same is true of Harry Moll in Australia, and all the US film dealers. You also almost never see them on ebay - and what I have seen on ebay have mostly been copies of the prints that were "borrowed" in the 1980s. If there were any sort of quantity of episodes out there, you would expect them to turn up from time to time for sale -- just like Star Trek prints turn up all the time. This doesnt mean that there aren't any out there - just that they're not common. (which is no surprising given that it is known that there were only a limited # of prints stuck and that most of those were returned or destroyed). Ah, but you seem to miss the point a little here. It is just the opposite, you WON'T expect 16mm prints of lost Dr Who stories to just pop up for sale on ebay. Because they would have the BBC jumping all over the place to get the episode back immediately. Since strictly speaking, it's current owner should not even have it in their possession in the first place. Many NZ collectors advised against Grenville going public with 'Lion'. Hence this was strictly a one off incident that we are not likely to see again. And like I stated somewhere above, Lion had been sold 'privately' quite a number of times in the past before it even reached Grenville, and yet no one in fandom ever heard a whisper about the previous sales, for the above reason. (And given Who's publicity over the years, no one is going to convince me that somewhere along the private sales line, that someone did NOT realise that Lion was a missing episode) It's the same in UK too. If private sales of a missing episode do occur, they occur VERY discreetly, just like Lion had been for so many years. Star Trek prints are different to Dr Who prints. In that A: There are a lot more of them and B: It is legal to own and publicly sell them. Correct me if I am wrong, but wasn't there a situation in UK where some guy in Portsmouth bragged of having a 1 part Troughton/Cyberman story, and he then practically had the BBC knocking on the door asking for it back?? |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 8, 2008 18:11:24 GMT
Yes, discreet being the operative word. If private individuals have stuff they want to sell on quietly, no one else (other than the buyer) is likely to know about it. Prints can very easily (and do, i'm sure) stay underground very deliberately, for whatever reason. For more missing episodes to turn up now that all the obviously visible ones are known of, scratching a lot further beneath the surface is required.
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