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Post by sonnybh on Jul 9, 2023 13:43:55 GMT
Sadly, there seems an increased tendency these days to divide the world into the Elect and the Unelect. Anyone who puts a foot out of place is a very Devil. I have to admit that I love it when eco-activists are revealed to be keen on gas-guzzling trips to the four corners of the world. It works both ways, like the right wingers who pretend to be for family values, but hardly make an effort to cover up they are complete slimeballs!
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Post by sonnybh on Jul 9, 2023 13:46:15 GMT
I’m not sure we’re getting anywhere, going round and round in circles. What do we do with Alf Garnett? He was created to shine a light on bigotry but many bigots liked him. True but we still made great progress. Isn't the issue that the broadcasters no longer trust the public and assume they're all thickos? Goong by the last few election results can you blame them!
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Post by John Green on Jul 9, 2023 17:58:09 GMT
Sadly, there seems an increased tendency these days to divide the world into the Elect and the Unelect. Anyone who puts a foot out of place is a very Devil. I have to admit that I love it when eco-activists are revealed to be keen on gas-guzzling trips to the four corners of the world. Most people are complicated. George Formby went Blackface in No Limit when he was disguising himself as a seaside minstrel (rather than a Black man). But..." When George Formby went to Apartheid era South Africa in 1946, he could not understand why he was playing only to white audiences, he decided to refuse to play to racially segregated audiences, and went to the townships to play to the black populations in their own villages. They loved him for this, cheering him on. The National party leader at the time Daniel Malan berated him, eventually expelling Formby from the country. Beryl Formby told Malan "Why don't you .... off, you horrible little man". www.facebook.com/RebelCityNewspaper/photos/a.1657890734246316/1824074760961245/?type=3&paipv=0&eav=AfZfpOYuVuTg7-krzaYWq1o6LYuOM1i6v_NY9w18W4z6Q2gMxl8oPhK4jrGcIp1auIc&_rdrIn his last film, 'George in Civvy Street', also in 1946, he performs with a band which includes a Black drummer. Is he still a knuckle-dragging fascist/Nazi? I don't think so. You're missing my point, John. My complaint is with a show that promotes the practice of putting black-face on white actors, which induces the audience to laugh at this like they are laughing at clowns. The inference is mockery and it is degrading to others. Nothing to do with Mr Formby's endeavours and the fact he used genuine black people in his film in a way that was not condescending, and also supported the black community. This is a positive thing which I support and something I prefer to see and to read of (as in the case of your post). Excellent post, but not relevant to my complaint. You're right, of course, I'd make a much better defence solicitor than a prosecuting. I do like there to be balance, where possible. I still believe in many of the things for which I argued and marched, in a minor way, fifty years ago. but I worry that there's so much stress laid on one point of view, that others aren't heard. When the vast majority of pedagogues align and vote for X, it's possible that a culture prevails in which Y and Z, not to mention A,B, and C, can't even be discussed. I am a fan of the 'reacts to..." videos on Youtube, especially the ones where Americans get their first taste of UK TV shows. The Rising Damp ones are worth a look... The premise, of course, is that Rigsby (or in the first episode, Rooksby) is an on-site landlord who lets out grotty rooms to students and other marginal souls. Rigsby is tricked into letting a room to Phillip, who is Black. There's a fair bit of racist language from Rigsby in the first few episodes, and US viewers are initially taken aback. I think there's even a "I guess that's how people were back then" (1973). As the stories play out, however, it's soon clear that Phillip is smarter and better looking than anyone else in the rooms. Although Rigsby lusts after Miss Jones, she only has eyes (and potentially everything else) for Phillip. Black American reactors tend to find that interesting. (There's a cry of "Yeah man! Black on White" at one point when Miss Jones tries to get physical). Miss J. always gravitates towards Phillip, no matter who else is in the room. Before long, the other males recognise Phillip's superiority,more or less reluctantly, and turn to him for advice. The first few episodes are a difficult watch, if you're viewing with a Black person, because, ostensibly, the other characters are allowed to belittle Phillip. It's only as the stories progress that the author's intention become clear to the reactors. (It was/is immediately apparent, hopefully, to UK viewers that as with 'Till Death, the opinions you're hearing aren't those of the author, or of society as a whole.). I could understand if a superficial viewing lead to a call to boycott/wipe the series. Such a view would be wrong. (Notice how I don't make a case for Love Thy Neighbour? I really don't fancy watching that while it's being critiqued by a Black audience. Come to that, I don't fancy watching it, per se!).
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RWels
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Post by RWels on Jul 9, 2023 18:30:55 GMT
The outrage was at the time. Complaints from '63 onwards. Yes, so you are still too late. Glad to read you don't think it should be shown today. Literally NO-ONE is saying that it should. I can't imagine anyone planning to. Sorry, Rob, and with all due respect I cannot condone the hunt for material which is degrading to the black community in a way that the TB&WMS was. I do genuinely believe the show should be buried and forgotten. The inference of the performances was mockery at others expense. From what I can tell, the show clearly IS buried and forgotten. Can't you tell? Nice to see you make a stand and pass judgement, but that's not what Rob said. This whole thing seems a bit like a straw man, or fighting torn-down windmills to me. I'd even say it's a somewhat superficial way to support any cause, complaining online 50 years later.
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Post by andyparting on Jul 9, 2023 18:57:11 GMT
The outrage was at the time. Complaints from '63 onwards. Yes, so you are still too late. Glad to read you don't think it should be shown today. Literally NO-ONE is saying that it should. I can't imagine anyone planning to. Sorry, Rob, and with all due respect I cannot condone the hunt for material which is degrading to the black community in a way that the TB&WMS was. I do genuinely believe the show should be buried and forgotten. The inference of the performances was mockery at others expense. From what I can tell, the show clearly IS buried and forgotten. Can't you tell? Nice to see you make a stand and pass judgement, but that's not what Rob said. This whole thing seems a bit like a straw man, or fighting torn-down windmills to me. I'd even say it's a somewhat superficial way to support any cause, complaining online 50 years later. Havig trawled through all your misinterpretations of my posts, let me reiterate in layman's terms: the complaint I've raised from the outset is that 1) someone desires to find a missing clip -50 years later - which pervades a mockery of the black community 2) that preservationists would see something that infers mockery at the black community as qualifying for digging up for discussion and preservation.
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Post by andyparting on Jul 9, 2023 19:04:45 GMT
Again, you're talking about your pov. I'm talking about how people would find this offensive now as they did back then. The implication was mockery - have a laugh at the expense of another race. Posters on here cannot or will not see this outside of their pov, to the pov of others. This show should be erased, wiped without trace for the harm it did and can still do. Again, this thread serves no purpose other than politcal discussion, it won't find your missing clip - not that it needs finding, givig the offensive content of the dance itself. I love to hear anybody who thinks this should be preserved stand up before a 2023 TV audience and say this and show clips from it to them. See the reaction. I would agree that in the USA the form had its roots in mockery of black people but I truly don't think that was the intention of most if not all of those involved in the UK. It was just a sort of theatrical art form. One could say the same about drag. Some of which is quite foul mockery of women. On the other hand there are/were female impersonators such as Hinge and Brackett which one could say had considerable artistic merit and males playing female roles in the theatre goes way back centuries. Perhaps I'm a hypocrite because I wouldn't like to see any new black-face on TV however I wouldn't like to see drag banned. Although I think a lot of modern drag is without merit. But if BBC 4 wanted to screen an episode of Love Thy Neighbour or the BWMS and maybe precede it with a documentary putting it in context then I see no reason why not and then we can all discuss it. Not everyone has the money to buy discs or streams. As someone has pointed out, that people now go to YouTube to see these things instead of the BBC and that is becoming a problem for them. There is a young black American man called Jay Peezy who does reaction videos on YouTube and that is how I have rewatched Love Thy Neighbour 50 years after first seeing it. It's a sort of "gross out" humour now. So ridiculous and dated. But the controlling broadcasters who know what is good for us can't trust us to watch it in the way Jay does, to his credit. Good Sunday sermon. For whoever has ears to hear...
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Post by John Wall on Jul 9, 2023 20:02:38 GMT
It’s worth noting that few, if any, here actually give a Rhett Butler about TB&WMS, other than believing that it should be seen, although not necessarily literally!, as something to learn from. iirc it was last shown some 45 years ago and, since then, nowt! I can only think of about one occasion when it’s popped up - and that was on one of those “anniversary” shows where there was, maybe, a couple of seconds, simply because they couldn’t ignore something that had been on for 20 years.
However, many here are interested in Uncle Terry’s cuddly pepper pots and would like to know how they were incorporated in what was, then, a popular light entertainment show.
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Post by jcoleman on Jul 10, 2023 1:57:15 GMT
(Notice how I don't make a case for Love Thy Neighbour? I really don't fancy watching that while it's being critiqued by a Black audience. Come to that, I don't fancy watching it, per se!). That's interesting. I'd only ever heard about Love They Neighbour so recently watched the pilot episode on YouTube to see it for myself. As far as I could tell the white male neighbour and his bigotry and hypocrisy were the butt of all the humour. A man who campaigned against apartheid and for equality but objected to people of colour moving in next door? A bigot who clearly found his black female neighbour attractive? It's the absurdity of the racist clichés he comes out with, as cringeworthy and offensive as they are, that the show appeared to me to be mocking. The twist at the end where he finds out that his new neighbour is also his new work colleague and comes home railing about how he's always been 'against their kind', how 'they're the enemy' and if he had his way 'they'd all be deported' and his angry wife calling him out on his racism only to be told 'I'm not talking about his colour. He's a bloody Conservative!' was a clever and I thought amusing joke. I've not watched any further episodes, so I can't comment on how it progressed but based purely on that first episode, despite some language that would be considered highly offensive these days, it didn't strike me as this dreadful programme I'd heard it was.
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RWels
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Post by RWels on Jul 10, 2023 8:58:52 GMT
It’s worth noting that few, if any, here actually give a Rhett Butler about TB&WMS, other than believing that it should be seen, although not necessarily literally!, as something to learn from. iirc it was last shown some 45 years ago and, since then, nowt! I can only think of about one occasion when it’s popped up - and that was on one of those “anniversary” shows where there was, maybe, a couple of seconds, simply because they couldn’t ignore something that had been on for 20 years. However, many here are interested in Uncle Terry’s cuddly pepper pots and would like to know how they were incorporated in what was, then, a popular light entertainment show. Exactly. That's just it. Havig trawled through all your misinterpretations of my posts, let me reiterate in layman's terms: the complaint I've raised from the outset is that 1) someone desires to find a missing clip -50 years later - which pervades a mockery of the black community 2) that preservationists would see something that infers mockery at the black community as qualifying for digging up for discussion and preservation. What if that clip didn't contain blacked up people? You see, the show was not completey done blacked up, the one that I saw had three numbers like that, but also others. (So it does pay to examine the evidence.) What if the dalek cameo was by itself innocent? At any rate the idea to selectively archive television seems flawed because it must be crystal clear by now that there are many opinions. I wouldn't want to take control of those scissors myself. In a decade or two perspectives may have shifted again. Plus, where will you stop? Tomb of the cybermen seems prejudiced to me; so what's to be done with that? Re-wipe it? (In the 1990s the term "PC" was already widely known, even mocked as "PC gone mad". It's just that it was framed differently, with much less emphasis on declaring stuff off limits.)
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Post by andyparting on Jul 10, 2023 10:27:08 GMT
It’s worth noting that few, if any, here actually give a Rhett Butler about TB&WMS, other than believing that it should be seen, although not necessarily literally!, as something to learn from. iirc it was last shown some 45 years ago and, since then, nowt! I can only think of about one occasion when it’s popped up - and that was on one of those “anniversary” shows where there was, maybe, a couple of seconds, simply because they couldn’t ignore something that had been on for 20 years. However, many here are interested in Uncle Terry’s cuddly pepper pots and would like to know how they were incorporated in what was, then, a popular light entertainment show. Exactly. That's just it. Havig trawled through all your misinterpretations of my posts, let me reiterate in layman's terms: the complaint I've raised from the outset is that 1) someone desires to find a missing clip -50 years later - which pervades a mockery of the black community 2) that preservationists would see something that infers mockery at the black community as qualifying for digging up for discussion and preservation. What if that clip didn't contain blacked up people? You see, the show was not completey done blacked up, the one that I saw had three numbers like that, but also others. (So it does pay to examine the evidence.) What if the dalek cameo was by itself innocent? At any rate the idea to selectively archive television seems flawed because it must be crystal clear by now that there are many opinions. I wouldn't want to take control of those scissors myself. In a decade or two perspectives may have shifted again. Plus, where will you stop? Tomb of the cybermen seems prejudiced to me; so what's to be done with that? Re-wipe it? (In the 1990s the term "PC" was already widely known, even mocked as "PC gone mad". It's just that it was framed differently, with much less emphasis on declaring stuff off limits.) The clip does contain blacked-up faces, as mentioned in an earlier post. All the more reason to let it go, where it belongs. Lost.
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RWels
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Post by RWels on Jul 10, 2023 11:09:05 GMT
The clip does contain blacked-up faces, as mentioned in an earlier post. All the more reason to let it go, where it belongs. Lost. The rest of my previous post still applies, though. Where to draw the line, and should personal values affect archival conservation policies? TBH I think it's a bit presumptuous to want to make that decision for everyone now and in the future. Elsewhere on this board, people are extremely unhappy when radio repeats are trimmed to remove a few jokes that aged badly. Their irrational fear is that the master tapes will be censured, even though there's never been talk of that... (Until now?)
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Post by garygraham on Jul 10, 2023 16:39:38 GMT
It’s worth noting that few, if any, here actually give a Rhett Butler about TB&WMS, other than believing that it should be seen, although not necessarily literally!, as something to learn from. iirc it was last shown some 45 years ago and, since then, nowt! I can only think of about one occasion when it’s popped up - and that was on one of those “anniversary” shows where there was, maybe, a couple of seconds, simply because they couldn’t ignore something that had been on for 20 years. However, many here are interested in Uncle Terry’s cuddly pepper pots and would like to know how they were incorporated in what was, then, a popular light entertainment show. BBC 4 did a documentary a few years ago and in the second half of the 80s it was discussed on a BBC1 daytime show. In which Bill Cotton the Managing Director of TV used the "N" word twice, saying it was based on "N minstrel shows." Pretty extraordinary. Different times... The BBC never shows that bit now!
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Post by John Wall on Jul 10, 2023 21:36:13 GMT
It’s worth noting that few, if any, here actually give a Rhett Butler about TB&WMS, other than believing that it should be seen, although not necessarily literally!, as something to learn from. iirc it was last shown some 45 years ago and, since then, nowt! I can only think of about one occasion when it’s popped up - and that was on one of those “anniversary” shows where there was, maybe, a couple of seconds, simply because they couldn’t ignore something that had been on for 20 years. However, many here are interested in Uncle Terry’s cuddly pepper pots and would like to know how they were incorporated in what was, then, a popular light entertainment show. BBC 4 did a documentary a few years ago and in the second half of the 80s it was discussed on a BBC1 daytime show. In which Bill Cotton the Managing Director of TV used the "N" word twice, saying it was based on "N minstrel shows." Pretty extraordinary. Different times... The BBC never shows that bit now! A documentary on the B&WMS?
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Post by Pete Morris on Jul 11, 2023 1:05:15 GMT
BBC 4 did a documentary a few years ago and in the second half of the 80s it was discussed on a BBC1 daytime show. In which Bill Cotton the Managing Director of TV used the "N" word twice, saying it was based on "N minstrel shows." Pretty extraordinary. Different times... The BBC never shows that bit now!
There were BBC rules listing unacceptable speech circa the Goon Show era. Spike Milligan much later did a routine where he simply read from the rules that he had to follow. The rules gave specific examples of things not to say. Jokes about pre-natal influences, such as saying of a tall man, his mother was scared by a giraffe.
One of the rules was that "n-----r" was banned except in the phrase "n-----r minstrel"
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Post by George D on Jul 11, 2023 1:50:16 GMT
A documentary on the B&WMS? Is a propaganda piece against it, but it has some decent clips. Part of me wanted to understand Andy's position and discover if he (or anyone he knows) was personally hurt somehow directly related to the show to cause him to be so hateful. When i asked directly last time, i didn't see the answer. While I'm understanding it is not a show fitting into what tv stations desire to make, I'm not understanding why it can't have limited dvd or download release You're missing my point, John. My complaint is with a show that promotes the practice of putting black-face on white actors, which induces the audience to laugh at this like they are laughing at clowns. The inference is mockery and it is degrading to others. I'm curious how many of the shows you watched before you started posting on this topic. I think it was shared before that this was a musical show.. some had blackface and they also acted numerous cultures. The show is not a comedy or a minstrel show but a musical review.. in fact one could argue the show was progressive as it had blackface men interracially with white women. People were enjoying the music. The race wasn't the focus. I concede maybe some people could feel offended and i respond two ways. One is as this is pulled, should shows that other groups find offensive be pulled also? If the makeup was white or orange, would that be offensive to you? My biggest concern is things that affect children during their formative years. This was an adult show but there are shows aimed at children with things very negatively imitateable with life changing harm to children. Fortunately we're not in a world where drs are attempting to influence children to change their pigment.. Most adults i hope can distinguish between a fictional character and the race of the character.
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